Sundays Scenario Reflections..(long)

[Pongo]

On Sunday at 3-4pm Eastern AH got what must be its most severe test yet.
CaveJ Lead a force of 22-24 bombers on an attack against the Knights city, escorted by 17-19? P51s led by Redstar.
The knights fielded 26? German fighters in an overwhelming defence led by Kieren.
First bomber dead was Pongo.....(quit looking at the pretty fights and check six)
High points.
Coordination between the three leads led to improved but not perfect force balancing.  If the german defenders can not be lowered to an amount equal to the escorts then the bombers will have to fly higher in the future. Certainly the quality of the pony pilots in this scenerio was exceptional..There was little they could do.
I believe that the force composition should be 60% bombers 20% escorts 20 % interceptors.
We had nearly 70 aircraft..we will get 70 next time. That would be
42 Bombers.
14 Escorts.
14 Interceptors.

Everyone there saw the effect of letting a superior number of cannon armed and well flown fighters have a 6k bounce on a smaller force of bombers..

None of us want to force the fight up to 29-32k where the balace would shift horribly against the LW so some form of force ballancing-tactics change is required.

On the administative side there where problems from the start. The organisers need the ability to force people out of the arena. we were shadowed by 2 p51s and a B26 almost from take off and repeated (and i mean repeated) attempts to get the bishop perpetrators out of the mission ammounted to nothing..all three engaged our bombers and all three had to be shot down and they definatly caused confusion in the bomber and escort ranks at a critical time of the mission. ( i really wish they had wandered in to knight land instead of rook land...he he..nice appitizer)
I took their IDs. But i never recognized any of them, so on the chance we are dealing with a newby problem we should let this one ride...BUT...It would be great if on login to the arena there was a readme text that was displayed to everyone.
This could anounce that there was an orginised event taking place, the leaders, the basic paramaters, the counties for each side, the target force balance, channels,RW channels, load outs, etc. One page of text could make the task of the orginisers so much easier..
Performance..
AH help up pretty well from where I was...Some of the bomber pilots where having real trouble but they had slower systems I think. In future marginal system should probably stick to fighters..

Cave, Red, Kieren thanks alot. It was a blast.

What a turn out...
Musta really been somthing to dive into that box of bombers...but this will get cold real quick if some method of seting the force ballance isnt set up..
My opinion....



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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew

[weazel]

 Call me harsh,call me an a**hole,call me whatever you like-but those 3 <expletive> should have their accounts suspended for a 2 week period. They were repeatedly asked nicely to join in on one side or the other,warned there would be action taken against them (shot down/reported to HTC), and they made the choice to spoil something a lot of people spent time and money to organize. They deserve some kind of punishment,and the earlier the example is set for proper behavior the better. If a strong message isn`t sent it will only get worse."Train up a child in the way they should go,and when they are old they will not depart from it" This isn`t church but it`s appropriate-their behavior WAS childish.  

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 JG2 "Richthofen"

[This message has been edited by weazel (edited 02-27-2000).]

[Kieren]

Yeah, Pongo, we did our best to keep the numbers somewhat even.

Rispsnort had 11 109's, BigJim had 8 190's at the last call. I did not fly, but handled comms. We probably had some rogues jump in, but better Knight than Bish I suppose.  

Things were complicated by the fact I didn't know what your numbers were. You guys only gave me a total, so there was no way to know the size of your escort. I've been there when overwhelmed in B17's (remember the Rojo raid intercepted early?). I know that isn't fun. We (Rip, Big, and I) tried to tell people to move, but you know how that is...

Still, I think at least the Allied made a very good fight of it. We are getting closer to the right formula. I don't agree with the defense numbers, they are way too little IMHO. If we had kept it to the 19 we thought we had, it would have been very tough to defend at all.

On the brighter side, think of all the Allied pilots there will be next time... P38 out by then?  

[Cobra]

I just wanted to say thanks to Cave, Redstar, and Kieren for running this event.

It was a blast for me, and the organizational aspects will only get better.  I've been a Sector Commander of a force of 60 pilots before in scenarios, and this was a great start on the road to well-run events  <S>.

Flying a bomber in that formation was awesome.  At one point, I turned off the icons and the sight of all of those bombers was a total immersive experience!

Also, gunning in the tail watching bombers smoking, bandits slicing in and out with tracers all-around, well it was a fun afternoon to be sure.

[Minotaur]

This was my first SEA activity, so first things first.  Thanks to those that set this up, it was just a great experience!  

I have a some suggestions that I feel might improve things a bit in the future.

• Turn off all radar in the SEA[/b]
  Even when they knew what our target was, the LW players could certainly mark our location and progress.  Additionally, this could allow more strategy and surprize to the attacking side.
  
  
  • Add a rule that provides for a maximum altitude[/b]
    Today the allied bombers were 24k, the allied escorts were 29k and the LW defenders were 33k.  The escorts were pretty useless and the bombers just easy prey.  Make the hard top deck be 27k for the fighters and 24k for the bombers.
    
    One other solution would be to have all bombers climb to 33k.  Having no radar would eleaviate this issue somewhat.
    
    
    • Pre-designate one team to be the "Check-In Team"[/b]
      All players would enter the arena and then switch to Bishop.  The Bishop Team would function as a rallying point.  The players would then contact the various element CO's.  The element CO's would then send them to which team they should fly for, what role they should perform and who their element leader will be.  
      
      IE: Mino checks into the SEA and changes to the Bishop team.  After contacting CavemanJ he is sent to Rook airfield F1 to pilot a P-38 (HeHe   ) and he is told that his element leader will be Redstar.  Etc...
      
      Thanks again everyone, that was FUN!
      
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      Mino
      The Wrecking Crew
      Trainer

[Pongo]

 

Originally posted by Kieren:
[

Still, I think at least the Allied made a very good fight of it. We are getting closer to the right formula. I don't agree with the defense numbers, they are way too little IMHO. If we had kept it to the 19 we thought we had, it would have been very tough to defend at all.

On the brighter side, think of all the Allied pilots there will be next time... P38 out by then?   (Image removed from quote.)[/B]

Ya kieren i was guessing at the LW numbers..there seemed to be 24+ on the roster I assumed all where flying.



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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew

[Yeager]

Sounds like a good scenario.  I almost popped in but couldnt quite make it in time.

Yes, the scenario managers need a set of tools to properly manage the event.  It took several years for this in WBs and the tools still arent complete.  We also could use another terrain(s) for these events.

I am not clear if there have been any official appointments by HTC or what their role is in special events.  I am not aware of any websight detailing these events.

If this information exists (I probably missed it), could someone post the details.
AH has barely made it off the planning sheet and this is a great start!  A very exciting time indeed.  Everything is starting fresh but remember that these types of events have been occuring elsewhere for years.  Draw on that when designing scenarios and requesting tools.

Stick with it.

You guys are doing Great!

Yeager

[Kieren]

I don't think we can expect CM tools for our scenarios, as HTC will be charging a surcharge for their events. This isn't any inside knowledge, just seems to me all the extras we are talking about is why they could justify the charge. I do believe we can still have users make scenarios, but their implementation will rely on our cooperation.

I did ask HT about radar in the SEA, and he said he could knock it out if we liked. I should have said yes, sorry I didn't. It was Cave's event, and I wasn't sure what he wanted. I guess if I'd used some common sense...  

Let's go a step further next time and take icons completely off. Allied vs. Axis would make icons superfluous, and without will surely heighten anxiety!  

[Ripsnort]

The last roster check before rolling showed 29 LW pilots and 41 Allied.  Some of the 'scorts for ALlied should have turned bomber pilot, that probably would have made the allied penentration alot deeper.

When I arrived on the fighter escort, we were at 32K, the assigned alt for this scenario, Bee noted that there were 3 or 4 enenmy fighters that "Had Alt" on us..we adjusted our alt to 33K...this alt was broadcast to the group of 109's though I didn't have time to 'look back' to see if everyone was adhering to max. alt.

I thought for being an adhoc scenario, and as many walk-ons as there were, it went pretty smoothly...believe me, I've seen alot worse!

Definately need "someone in blue" aka a CM to lead it all, and doors locked (if possible) after the cut-off time.

Pongo, you sure the (4) fighters (190's, 109's) you saw early weren't our scouts?  We had them shoot up ahead of everyone for a sitrep.

Anyway, thanks CaveJ and Kieren for the great fun!  Next time I'll fly a bomber, the odds of 29 fighters vs. 9 bombers wasn't good odds for you guys, tis too bad you couldn't get about 10 of those 51 drivers to drive a Boeing.

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Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
++JG2++ ~Richthofen~ XO
(Formerly VF-101 Grim Reapers~Rip1~Warbirds~)
JG2 "Richthofen"
 
"Opfer mussen gebracht werden"
— Otto Lilienthal

[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 02-28-2000).]

[RAM]

MMM..lets see

Mino, the relative alts you are talking about must be the realistic ones,not any other to search bomber invulnerability...lets see:

1st: Historically,the WWII bombers (B-17s) went on alts 25-28K no more. SO the bombers SHOULDN't go higher for realistic reasons.

2nd: Yesterday the balance of power between Bombers and escorts used by allieds was out of bounds. So much escort for so few bombers...

3rd: In 43-early44 bombing missions LW launched roughly the same fighter numbers to engage than escorts the Allied bombers had. So our numbers yesterday werent so unbalanced. This feature was realistic.

4th: Radar disabled for Allied? yes. Radar disabled for LW? no. Historically the germans had radar station all along their country so LW MUST have radar. Also keep the air radar on, because in WWII LW fighters were constantly vectored by ground radar.

5th: hard ceiling for fighters? YES PLEASE 30K!!! my 190 cant climb more that that and its a pig at 20K...     seriously: NO. In WWII escorts used to go 5K feet over the escorted force. If, as you said P51s were at 28K and bombers 25K thats a fail of planning, P51s should have been at 30K to be an effective escorting force.

6th:I dont agree in closing the arena. Simple, one of us can get disco and then cant rejoin?...not fair.

7th:I agree in giving COs kick capabilities. Was annoying to see all the warnings in the buffer and then those ****** attack the allied.

I must say that yesterday LW won because the more unorganized the scenario is the more advantage we get. This will change with time as all of us start having better experience in formation flying and the escorts stop following me109s to 10K!!!! LOL.

Seriously, when P47,P51 and P38 arrives we'll be in a much lesser advantage position. Let's make real...and PLEASE dont make those bombers go higher than 28K!!!!!

and to a last one...I refer to my General Discussion post...DISABLE ICONS!!!! except your squad formation's    


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Ram, out

JG2 "Richthofen"

     



[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 02-28-2000).]

[Vermillion]

Realistically, until Pyro starts up an "official" scenario team, people are just going to have to cooperate to make the events enjoyable.

Right now there is a small group of guys working together to do these little events, but we're just players and have no official capacity at all.

Altitude limits are very difficult to deal with in Scenario's. In this case, its good to have a limit on the bombers, given their obvious invulnerability above 30k.

However, I don't think I would call for limits on the interceptors and escorts. Not only are they very hard to enforce, but are they even realistic? To succesfully attack a bomber stream at 25k to 28k, I would probably consider 30k a minimum for my interceptor force.

Anyways, good discussion  

Sorry I wasn't there to help guys, but it sounds like things are starting to come together. Congrats !

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[Dinger]

Just one note: there were a lot of bombers.  Radio buffer counts tend to underreport numbers.  Those bombers flying in formation probably did not see all the buffs.  After all, many did not see the bishop P51 flying in their midst.  I was a straggler, and spent much of my time directly below the group, trying to insert, and I was able to count at least 20 buffs, plus the bishop p51, plus the escorts in the distance.  If there were 2 bish p51s and a bish b26 there, I didn't see them on my FE.
When the fighters attacked, I was d 400 behind the main group, and I saw two buffs ahead of me spout flames and fireball past me, but I did not see the attacking fighters.  I did see the fighter that got me -- he materialized at d12 -- but my gunner, who was looking dead 6, did not.
Now, from a LW perspective, you would have seen first the escorts, then the fighters.  Chances are, while we didn't see all or most of the fighters attacking us, the fighters didn't see all or most of us.  So we looked underrepresented.

The only way we're gonna get a decent count is if someone sits down with several film clips, and copies down the callsigns of everyone in each group.  That would also give us a pretty good idea of the point at which the plane limit breaks down.

[Pongo]

Well I disagree..
It was two factors that led to the destruction of the allied force.
Too many LW.
we couldnt see all the fighters.

Ram. we were trying max the number of bombers just to see it, if we start talking for ways for the Allies to win against a supperior force of LW we are going to have to break up the bomber formation which is the major reason that people were in the scenario.....
We could have wacked the target easy with the force we had if we where tring to "Win"

Send in 8 (4 * 2)escorts to start messing up the fighters at H -20 min.
send in 6 b26s
2 NOE(target....city or field 1)
2 Medium alt just to probe and pull out fighters in spurrios directions
2 very high and fast to do the same,
that leaves 12 or so bombers and 9 escorts..come in at 33k from differnet directions in groups of 4 bombers 3 escorts city is gone..we "win". but we dont get to see the big scrap we all want to see..
is that the kind of organisation you want to see.

I thought we were trying to find a way to have a big stike package that could stand a chance showing historical results..


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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew

[Kieren]

Pongo-

That was exactly the type of strike we suspected!  

We instructed the two main defending bodies to expect a medium alt B26 raid from one direction, with the main assault of B17's coming high from another. I also suspected you might pull a fighter sweep early in the frame to get the fighters down. This was the main purpose of the armed recon ahead of our force- to visually ID the radar contact so we would know the alt, makeup, etc. We were able to adjust our fighter group alt based on the report we received, and this was critical to the intercept.

I wish I could give you a hard count on the LW we had present; I can't. I think for the force you had assembled, the 19 we thought we had would have been about right, considering about 40% were 190's, and would have stood little chance against the escorts. Put another way, the Allied would have held a 2:1 advantage against the LW at least.

I agree we need some balance to at least allow the stream to reach target. I think we need to call on our pilots to cooperate in the balancing of the sides.  

[RAM]

well I want to make clear some things...


Re-reading my post seems that I am saying that the SE was bad organiced. Not my belief, I think it was great!!!!
What I mean is that being all of us so nervous and so unexperienced in this sorta things, we were not as organized as expected. A good example is me...I was leader of one of the 190 Schwarms and I lost the 190's leader just after takeoff!!!.
I guess same things happened on Rook side, and if we add those ****** bishes marauders, I guess there was a little disorganization on the bomber formation (completely normal).
So, the more "fog of war" the more disorganization, the more LW advantage gets.That was my point.

Now, Pongo. I am only telling that if we are to make this events, the best way to do them is in Historical way. The best-balanced bombing missions on the war were the early-44 ones (Example the 1st Berlin raid). In those, LW put up a great defence, downing a lot of bombers and escorts, but also the USAAF inflicted heavy losses on Luftwaffe's Jagdwaffe. So if we want to give a balanced scenario, lets take those raids as an example...

1_Radar for LW, no Radar for USAAF.
2_Top ceiling for Bombers,28K, no ceiling for fighters
3_ratios:2.75:1 relationship between USAAF and LW.This way: 1 LW interceptor=2bombers+0.75 fighters.
4_free feints attacks by USAAF
5_free Fighter Sweeps by USAAF
6_free Armed Recce by LW.
(4,5,6 all counts in the 2.75-1 ratio above said)

I think this are some basic points in early 44's attacks on Germany by the 8th air force, and also points that can make the next event to be more balanced    

And one more point...ask for appointments...so If one wants to fly a SEA's event, ask people who wants to do it. The one who is not appointed, the one that don't fly. May be some unfair, but for sure this will avoid yesteday's stragglers and "Where-do-I-go-were-am-I-needed" situations.

And, again...to Cave,Kieren,and all those who organized yesterday's event...THANK YOU!!! was really nice  

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Ram, out

JG2 "Richthofen"

     



[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 02-28-2000).]