Author Topic: Re: Penn & Teller and flag burning  (Read 517 times)

Offline Hap

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Re: Penn & Teller and flag burning
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2008, 06:16:47 AM »
I still haven't figured out how burning something is speech..   talking about burning something now...

lazs

Don't try lazs, it ain't speech.  Don't care who else says it is.

Offline lazs2

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Re: Penn & Teller and flag burning
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2008, 08:14:34 AM »
If you do say it is "speech" then why would it not be "hate speech" like the KKK burning a cross?

There should be no law against burning anything you own so long as it endangers no one... is a legal burning in a legal area.. but..

If you incite people to hurt you over it then it should be up to a jury to decide who was in the wrong.   I would say that anyone who was attacked for burning a flag would simply be asking for it (within reason) Just like someone with a lynched negro effigy walking around..

Now, to me.. none of those examples is real speech.  Just like a painting or a statue is not speech.

lazs

Offline DREDIOCK

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Re: Penn & Teller and flag burning
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2008, 08:22:39 AM »
If you do say it is "speech" then why would it not be "hate speech" like the KKK burning a cross?

There should be no law against burning anything you own so long as it endangers no one... is a legal burning in a legal area.. but..

If you incite people to hurt you over it then it should be up to a jury to decide who was in the wrong.   I would say that anyone who was attacked for burning a flag would simply be asking for it (within reason) Just like someone with a lynched negro effigy walking around..

Now, to me.. none of those examples is real speech.  Just like a painting or a statue is not speech.

lazs

Also. Declare the flag a national monument.
It typically illegal to desecrate monuments
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Offline avionix

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Re: Penn & Teller and flag burning
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2008, 08:24:48 AM »
Quote
Speech refers to the processes associated with the production and perception of sounds used in spoken language

Quote
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/speech

In none of these definitions, is an action described as speech.  Speech is the SPOKEN word.
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Offline Jackal1

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Re: Penn & Teller and flag burning
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2008, 08:28:37 AM »
What troubles me the most about the issue is that our country has decomposed to the point that some people would desire to
show disgrace towards and inflame the very people and foundation that gave them their freedom.

Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline moot

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Re: Penn & Teller and flag burning
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2008, 08:44:49 AM »
I'm just offering a different perspective, I might not be spot on..  I am sure of one thing, though.  Burning a flag does nothing to deminish the idea that the flag symbolizes. It's an extremely petty thing to do, compared to lots of other things that truly are infringing on what the Constitution & co. stand for, like screwing with the 2nd amendment, etc.
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Offline Chairboy

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Re: Penn & Teller and flag burning
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2008, 08:50:11 AM »
What troubles me the most about the issue is that our country has decomposed to the point that some people would desire to
show disgrace towards and inflame the very people and foundation that gave them their freedom.
Our constitution and the first ten amendments recognize our right, as a nation, to be a bunch of ass%@$@.  Every law before was predicated on the assumption that you were not allowed to do stuff that upset other people, but our founding fathers recognized how much that emasculated the human spirit and put it down on paper that we, as humans, have the right to be jerks...  and that sometimes that's what being human is all about.

In another society, we couldn't even have this discussion because asserting that some jerks should be legally protected when they act like idiots and burn a flag is a conversation that offends some of you to your very core.  But the constitution doesn't give you the right to not be offended, no.  230 years of history establishes that the constitution and the bill of rights will always side with the ass%*(@% who chooses to assert his own rights over the comfort of others. 

This is all laid our in the 10 amendments to the constitution:

1. I have the right to say stuff you're gonna hate to hear.  Also, I can choose to worship a different god than you and you can't stop me.
2. I can buy tons of great guns, and if you feel scared about it...  tough.
3. I don't care if there's a war, I choose whether or not soldiers live in my house.
4. Buddy, you've gotta wake up REAL early in the morning if you want to look at my stuff, and you'd better be right if you think I did something wrong or there's going to be hell to pay.
5. Sure, it'd be polite of me to just say 'I did it', but if you jerks are going to try and pin something on me, I ain't helping, and I don't care how inconvenient it is.
6. I want to see the face of the jerkwad who said I did him wrong.  None of this 'hiding behind the skirts of mother' stuff, let's see it.  And let's see it now.
7. You're sure I broke the law?  You'd better be 'inconvenience 12 random peers' sure, because that's what it's gonna take.
8. Don't use your wallet to hold me down, fight like a man.
9. There are other things I can do, and this document isn't gonna nail down every aspect of who I am.  Deal with it.
10. I don't care how big your wig is or how many horses you own, the mere fact that you're in the government doesn't mean you're the boss.  I'm the boss, and you're my employee.  So get me some coffee.

And THAT is what makes our country great.  We're not a bunch of polite dandies who can get their puffery in a huff and have someone arrested for giving them the vapors with a 'brutish display', we're a bunch of jerks flipping each other the finger, and THAT'S the way we LIKE IT.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline Airhead

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Re: Penn & Teller and flag burning
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2008, 08:50:53 AM »
In none of these definitions, is an action described as speech.  Speech is the SPOKEN word.

That's pretty narrow...so you believe if I write something the Government doesn't approve of they can censor me?


Offline SkyRock

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Re: Penn & Teller and flag burning
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2008, 08:53:17 AM »
Why not make it illegal to burn the flag punishable by stoning?

 :rolleyes:



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Offline lazs2

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Re: Penn & Teller and flag burning
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2008, 08:53:59 AM »
Isn't the written word still.. a word?

Is a painting a speech?   is walking?  is eating?   it is all "symbolic" of some sort of crap.. burning the trash.. is that "speech"  how bout not wearing my frigging seatbelt or helmet?  is that "speech" it sure as hell is relevant than most.

lazs

Offline Chairboy

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Re: Penn & Teller and flag burning
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2008, 09:01:54 AM »
Lazs, you seem to be advocating greater government intervention instead of less.  This is out of character with most of your previous opinions where you argue for decreasing government control of our lives.  What specifically about this issue has compelled you to undermine all of your previous statements favoring smaller government?
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis