Author Topic: Re: Penn & Teller and flag burning (Read 528 times)

Tango · « **on:** May 20, 2008, 07:38:06 AM »

I don't get upset as much except when I see Americans burning the flag. Idiots from another country don't have the rights that we have but the idiots here do. If those same idiots could get thier hands on the original Bill of Rights or Declaration of Independance, I'm sure they would try to burn it as well. Instead they use Old Glory. One reason why we should ban flag burning.

Airhead · « **Reply #1 on:** May 20, 2008, 10:15:26 AM »

Quote from: avionix on May 20, 2008, 09:58:24 AM

Too many men have fought for and left of themselves on foreign fields in defense of our freedoms. Why spoil the price that they have paid by descrating the symbol of our freedoms?

Did you serve?

Hornet33 · « **Reply #2 on:** May 20, 2008, 04:16:48 PM »

Quote from: Tango on May 20, 2008, 10:24:21 AM

How many soldiers do you know that would support burning the flag? I know some that would like to beat the #$%& out of anyone that did it.

I served. Retired a year ago the end of this month. I don't think there needs to be a law agaisnt burning the flag. Do I support someone who burns the flag? NO!!! I DO support their RIGHT to burn the flag. I spent my entire adult life protecting their right to do so with no regrets. Burning the flag is a moral decision. If they can do it and look at themselves in the mirror the next day and feel fine about it, well they have to live with themselves. I can't stand someone who would cheat on their spouse either, again that's a moral choice.

This is the United States of America. To call yourself an American citizen you MUST allow everyone who is a citizen to express their own views however they choose to unless doing so violates your rights. They have the right to burn the flag and I have the right to call them a cowardly @#$% (you can fill in the blank there) to their face for doing so. We don't have "moral" police in this country. Some countries do. There are places where if your heard speaking badly about the government, you vanish. Take a good hard look at Myanmar. The few reports coming out of that country were reporters have talked to locals, they don't give any names. Why do you think that is? They all say the same thing. I don't want to get in trouble for talking bad about the government.

Thank GOD I live here where I can call the sitting president a putz if I want too, in public as loud as I want, and I don't have to worry about some secret police coming in the middle of the night and taking me away. Banning the act of burning our nations flag would be nothing but anouther step towards having ALL our freedoms taken away. What would be next?

For those that think banning flag burning is a good idea, let me ask you this. What gives YOU the RIGHT to deny someone their RIGHT to freedom of expression and political dissent?

Toad · « **Reply #3 on:** May 20, 2008, 04:27:21 PM »

Quote from: midnight Target on May 20, 2008, 08:38:58 AM

Symbolism is symbolism whther it is in the form of letters or pictures or fabric symbols... all speech and all protected by our wonderful bill of rights.

Is expressing my disagreement with a flag burner by symbolically putting a 150 grain 7.62 x 51 bullet cruising two feet over a flag burner's head a legitimate symbolic act of free speech protected by our wonderful bill of rights?

AKIron · « **Reply #4 on:** May 20, 2008, 05:13:33 PM »

Two feet sounds plenty generous to me, maybe too generous.

DREDIOCK · « **Reply #5 on:** May 20, 2008, 07:12:19 PM »

Quote from: Airhead on May 20, 2008, 02:10:57 PM

When people say this-
"Too many men have fought for and left of themselves on foreign fields in defense of our freedoms. Why spoil the price that they have paid by descrating the symbol of our freedoms?"

Or this-
"When you desecrate the flag you also desecrate those who's very blood was spilled.
It the moral equevelant of pissing on someones tombstone"

They presume to speak for veterans, and I resent that.

I speak for nobody but myself.
And perhaps those who have died fighting for this country.
When one of our combat dead complains. I'll care.

But to be honest. Some of the ones who instilled that feeling in me were vets.
But also ones who werent. Its just the way it was taught back then.
Even if you didnt agree with what the government was doing. You showed the utmost respect for the flag.

Throughout my life I've known Vets. When I was a little kid my neighborhood was filled with combat Vets of both WWII and Korea and then those returning from Vietnam.
And those who simply served.
It is perhaps those people more then anyone else who instilled both the pride and respect I have in our flag .
They all felt the same way. and taught me to do the same

I know my father, (Army,82nd Airborne early 1960's) Felt the same way I do.
As did one of my uncles Did. (Army reverves late 60's (Till he became a Jehovas Witness)
I know my brother in law does. (Navy Early 70's) they all served (but didnt fight)

I know my other uncle (Army, Korea 1952-53)
My father in law (Navy WWII 1943-45)
Wifes Grandfather (Navy WWI WWII)
Wifes Uncle (Marines WWII, Korea)
As well as several of my friends whom have served. In Various branches
All felt or feel the same way.

I remember being with my father in law when on the news one night they showed Americans burning he flag.
He got as pissed as I've ever seen him "Geezus H KeeRiist. Is this what I fought for?? Is this what Joey (mother in laws brother, KIA WWII) And John (Father in laws other Brother KIA Korea)Hi Died for??"

I know how they feel.. I've yet to meet the vet face to face that doesnt.

But I dont speak for them.
Many of them can still speak for themselves
I speak for myself and in honor of the estimated 1,004,234 American war dead who serving under that flag who cant speak for themselves.
That flag as much as any monument or tombstone represents them as much as anything else.

So long as you can draw enough breath to speak for yourself. I wouldnt think to speak for you
But, the moment you become an american war dead I'll be honored and proud to speak for you as well in memory of you.

Untill that time
I really dont give a damn what you resent

Gunthr · « **Reply #6 on:** May 20, 2008, 07:57:33 PM »

I've tried 4 - 6 times to view the video.. won't load for some reason. I usually like these guys' take on things, so I probably have no problem with it - except for my own free speech opinion that every spoiled, thankless POS who burns our flag is an prettythanghole.

Gunthr

E25280 · « **Reply #7 on:** May 20, 2008, 08:01:49 PM »

I do find it interesting that, generally speaking, people are very selective about what kinds of speech they want protected.

Burn an American flag, and these people call it "free speech."

Burn a cross, and many of the same people call it "hate speech."

Personally, I don't see too much difference, either in the act or the intent. But they are treated very, very differently. If one can be treated as a crime, then they both should be able to.

Chairboy · « **Reply #8 on:** May 20, 2008, 08:04:56 PM »

I don't think flag burning should be illegal. When you say "these people", do you include me? Just want to make sure I understand your overgeneralization.

Maverick · « **Reply #9 on:** May 20, 2008, 08:27:09 PM »

I said it before in an earlier post but I'll repeat it here.

I think flag burning is speech, needs to be protected as far as government action is concerned. I do think that witnessing flag burning should be a defense to punching out the burner in addition to being a type of free speech as well.

avionix · « **Reply #10 on:** May 20, 2008, 08:46:18 PM »

Drediock,

Well said.

Tango · « **Reply #11 on:** May 20, 2008, 09:23:35 PM »

Quote from: Airhead on May 20, 2008, 12:22:47 PM

Tango?? Did you serve?

No I did not, BUT I come from a military family. My father served 20 years in the Air Force and was a tail gunner in a B-29 in Korea. I can tell you that he said that anyone who burned the flag should be thrown out of the country for it.

moot · « **Reply #12 on:** May 20, 2008, 09:23:54 PM »

Words are just one means of communicating. The ideas are what "freedom of speech" are about, just as freedom of religion is. It's from ideas that words, and pictures, and other means of communication, flow. That's why there's not even a hint anywhere (except maybe in modern politicians' minds) of a need for "freedom of thought" legislature.

Yeager · « **Reply #13 on:** May 20, 2008, 09:32:13 PM »

I used to think flag burning was strictly bad mojo......now in my continuing slide towards wisdom I believe it should be a protected expression of political thought indeed, as it is. God Bless America, hell just Bless America works for me. We are a one of a kind group of people.

P and T got it perfectly right there.

Ironblade · « **Reply #14 on:** May 20, 2008, 09:48:49 PM »

Salute all
I am also a veteran , 2 combat tours with the 82nd Airborne !! Panama operation Just Cause and straight into the first Gulf War !! For me the Flag always represented Home,We marched with it,eat with it,sleep under it,Charged with it ,Wrapped our dead with it ,What does it mean to me Everything !!! Ive sat in alot of SH@#$ holes but have always looked at the flag and wondered what you guys were doing back here in the states ,but i never felt alone as long as I had my brothers and my flag... as to the bill of rights as im older my thoughts without it we have nothing!! as to flag burning it makes me sick to my stomach ,would I stop it NO I believe in our freedom more. just shed a tear and try to hold back my anger to someone who doesnt know what he or she is burning and only hope I can Teach them better...