Author Topic: who really believe in your rights...  (Read 710 times)

Offline Toad

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Re: who really believe in your rights...
« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2008, 06:54:32 PM »
Twenty, sometimes it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than it is to post and remove all doubt.

The edit button is your friend.
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Offline Toad

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Re: who really believe in your rights...
« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2008, 06:56:25 PM »
Dred, he doesn't like to take a stand on a pending case because he might pick the wrong side and end up with the losers.

Far better to let the courts decide and then agree with them to show how knowledgeable he is.

I'll be interested in what he has to say about Heller if/when the SC decides the 2nd is an individual right and DC was plumb wayout WRONG.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline AKIron

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Re: who really believe in your rights...
« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2008, 07:02:43 PM »
If this court rules that the 2nd is an individual right, and an earlier court ruled (erroneously perhaps) a sawed off shotgun not protected because it wasn't a weapon commonly used by the military, can we infer that individuals will have the right protected by the constitution to bear weapons commonly in use by the military?
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Offline SteveBailey

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Re: who really believe in your rights...
« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2008, 07:17:06 PM »
Chit.....

 The NRA are a bunch people who do nothing for the people they are supposed to represent.

Actually this is patently wrong.

Offline Leslie

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Re: who really believe in your rights...
« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2008, 11:22:26 PM »
If this court rules that the 2nd is an individual right, and an earlier court ruled (erroneously perhaps) a sawed off shotgun not protected because it wasn't a weapon commonly used by the military, can we infer that individuals will have the right protected by the constitution to bear weapons commonly in use by the military?

That is a very good question.  Toad could answer this better than I. 

My opinion is not worth much but from reading a little, it seems the NFA (National Firearms Act) of 1934 was in response to public outcry over the St. Valentine's Day Massacre.  It was required to register certain short barreled and automatic firearms with the MTU (Miscellaneous Tax Unit), later to be called the BATF.  Back in those days, the $200 tax/fee was a prohibitive measure designed to restrict ownership of these style weapons.  $200 was a lot of money compared to what a firearm would cost.

The Miller case (erroneously) determined short barreled shotguns were not military weapons, and the case was based largely on what weaponry defined "efficiency" in a militia, i.e. weaponry commonly used by the military.  The Supreme Court determined SBS's were not military weapons. 

In the Supreme Court hearing of the Miller case, the defendants did not show up in court because Miller had been killed and Layton (the other defendant) took a plea bargain before any defense could be formed. This case resulted from Treasury agents looking for a moonshine still and finding one which was non-functional and hadn't been in operation for awhile.  They did find Miller's sawed off shotgun on the seat of his truck, and made an arrest on that to save embarrassment from not finding an operating still.  Miller had not paid the MTU tax on his firearm. 

The U.S. Western District Court for the Western District of Arkansas originally ruled the NFA violated the Second Amendment.  The SC reversed that ruling based on what defined a military firearm suitable for a militia.  The SC also remanded the case back to district court for further proceedings, which never took place due to no defendants present.  A defense was never formed and the Miller case was not completely decisive. 

To me, it sure does infer that if the Second Amendment is interpreted as an individual right guaranteeing a right to bear arms (commonly in use by the military,) small arms such as short barreled shotguns and mgs would no longer require taxes/licenses to possess and would basically fall under the same category as handguns.  I believe a small arm is defined as any (loaded) firearm which can be carried easily by one person.  It does not include ordnance. 

The original prohibitive nature of the 1934 NFA was due to gangster usage of certain firearms as SBS's and fully automatic weapons.  It's hard to imagine any of the restrictions on those firearms changing because of a constitutional ruling.  The original NFA was created by public outcry and unconstitutional according to District Court, yet it has stood up to this day.  It's my understanding the Miller case wasn't handled in a completely decisive manner by the SC.  Gun control groups champion it as a precedent ruling.  We can hope an individual right ruling would pave the way for easing restrictions concerning handguns and concealed carry in all 50 states and Washington DC.  I doubt regulations and laws concerning sawed off shotguns and such will change, but theoretically those laws could be relaxed you'd think.

So, to answer your question Iron, in my opinion yes it could be inferred but I don't think it'll happen.






Les


 
« Last Edit: May 23, 2008, 11:25:35 PM by Leslie »

Offline TwentyFo

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Re: who really believe in your rights...
« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2008, 12:52:45 AM »
Actually this is patently wrong.

The NRA by nature has failed at everything they've fought for. Gun laws are tearing this country apart. A guy kills an intruder on his property in Texas and is sent to jail. What is up with that? Where was the NRA on that one? All the NRA does is compromise. They never get real results. It hurts me deep inside to see our 2nd amendment rights being chipped away by intellectual, East Coast, Ivy League Liberals. I want it my way or no way.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: who really believe in your rights...
« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2008, 07:45:48 AM »
The NRA by nature has failed at everything they've fought for. Gun laws are tearing this country apart. A guy kills an intruder on his property in Texas and is sent to jail. What is up with that? Where was the NRA on that one? All the NRA does is compromise. They never get real results. It hurts me deep inside to see our 2nd amendment rights being chipped away by intellectual, East Coast, Ivy League Liberals. I want it my way or no way.

and yet, in an earlier post, you mentoned how easily you could purchase just about anything you wanted, illegally.  this would lead me to believe that you may have purchased once or twice from them.THAT sir, makes YOU part of the problem, just as these ILLEGAL sellers are. all of these new(and un-needed) gun laws are aimed at(supposedly) the illegal weapons. so, as long as people like you are buing them, then the powers that be will continue to keep making new, and redundant unneeded laws.
 i don't own any guns, mostly because i spend way too much of my money on other hobbies......flying, r/c models, archery, hotrods, and my business are a few. but i DO however believe that if i should so choose, i should be able to LEGALLY own what i want(an someday i may choose to do so). my neighbor has some nice guns. a gu i used to work with i think could hold off the local pd for a day or two with what he owns. but the are legal, even in nj.

 i don't know too much about the nra, but before you go accusing them of doing nothing, have you sat and tried to imagine what ths situation would be lke if the'd never existed/? i somehow think it'd be much much worse than it is now.


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Offline Toad

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Re: who really believe in your rights...
« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2008, 08:17:19 AM »
Cap, he's a troll.

Iron, I think that what we can infer is that IF Heller is decided as a clear individual right then you will see a lot more court cases on the 2nd.  ;)

The fellow that prepared Heller said his next task is to bring incorporation of the 2nd. THAT would really clear the decks for the "reasonable restriction" fights that are sure to follow Heller and any incorporation of the 2nd.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline lazs2

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Re: who really believe in your rights...
« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2008, 09:19:18 AM »
twentyfo.. we all know that you don't have a clue about the NRA.  I will bet that you have never visited their NRAILA website.

It would take you about 10 sec to see what they do for the common man and our second amendment rights.

lazs

Offline lazs2

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Re: who really believe in your rights...
« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2008, 09:32:02 AM »
As for how much of our rights will be given back when the supreme court rules....

Well.. there is the mater of scrutiny... or rather, the "tiers of scrutiny"  This is their way of backing off of a decision.

If they rule "extreme scrutiny" then for example.. when you say the free speech under extreme scrutiny you get not only speech but the written word and even..  flag burning.. perhaps even defecating in the street..all covered under "free speech".   Strict scrutiny means that the spirit of the thing must be upheld.. if we need armed citizens then they can own any arms they wish with no restrictions save citizenship and "able bodied" which means sane also and adult.

If they rule (as the government has asked) "medium scrutiny" Then the government has a right to some reasonable restrictions (can of worms) on a something that says "shall not be infringed"  it would mean for instance that.. you would have the right to own and bear useful firearms but that some restrictions could apply..

Obviously...  a total ban is not a "reasonable restriction"  locked and unloaded is not a "reasonable restriction"  it makes the firearm.. not a firearm.

I have no idea what "rare scrutiny" would be except that it would be a dictator or socialists dream ruling..  it would mean that pretty much.. none of us knew our "rights" until our government told us what they were.

lazs

Offline TwentyFo

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Re: who really believe in your rights...
« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2008, 11:57:05 AM »
THAT sir, makes YOU part of the problem, just as these ILLEGAL sellers are. all of these new(and un-needed) gun laws are aimed at(supposedly) the illegal weapons. so, as long as people like you are buing them, then the powers that be will continue to keep making new, and redundant unneeded laws.
 

<<S>>

Last I heard we have the right to bear arms, it's in the constitution. Why should we have laws that regulate who can buy what? America was built on the 2nd amendment. Being born an American citizen I should have the right to own any firearm I want. I don't care if I purchased it through legal means or illegal means. This is a right I have and I choose to take advantage of it.

The NRA is useless, and so are its members. A bunch of do nothing citizens who just sit there and let the liberals in Washington take all of their rights away. Until people realize that this organization does nothing but compromise and chip away at our 2nd amendment rights nothing will change. I just wish people would wake up and realize this.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: who really believe in your rights...
« Reply #41 on: May 24, 2008, 12:05:46 PM »
Last I heard we have the right to bear arms, it's in the constitution. Why should we have laws that regulate who can buy what? America was built on the 2nd amendment. Being born an American citizen I should have the right to own any firearm I want. I don't care if I purchased it through legal means or illegal means. This is a right I have and I choose to take advantage of it.

The NRA is useless, and so are its members. A bunch of do nothing citizens who just sit there and let the liberals in Washington take all of their rights away. Until people realize that this organization does nothing but compromise and chip away at our 2nd amendment rights nothing will change. I just wish people would wake up and realize this.

i agree that we should be able to own an firearms we want. but the problem is that we CAN'T. so, when people like ou continue to go out and illegally purchase banned guns, that only gives the anti-gun lobbys, people, politicians, etc more ammunition to work towards taking ALL of your rights concerning guns away.

also, remember if you choose to "take advantage" of your right to own an illegal weapon, then when you end up in prison for it, you've also chosen to excersze THAT right too. :D
 i really hope you don't walk around spewing the bull in public, that ou do in here, because that i think would reflect poorly on gun owners in general.
 like i said, someday i will probably choose to own one, when i do, i'll go through the proper channels(which are hard here in the peoples free republic of nj) and will never have to worry bout hiding it, or ending up in prison.

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Offline Dago

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Re: who really believe in your rights...
« Reply #42 on: May 24, 2008, 02:41:48 PM »
Last I heard we have the right to bear arms, it's in the constitution. Why should we have laws that regulate who can buy what? America was built on the 2nd amendment. Being born an American citizen I should have the right to own any firearm I want. I don't care if I purchased it through legal means or illegal means. This is a right I have and I choose to take advantage of it.

The NRA is useless, and so are its members. A bunch of do nothing citizens who just sit there and let the liberals in Washington take all of their rights away. Until people realize that this organization does nothing but compromise and chip away at our 2nd amendment rights nothing will change. I just wish people would wake up and realize this.

Anyone who would write the above is either clueless in a world record way, or is one huge troll.

Either way, not worth responding to guys.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: who really believe in your rights...
« Reply #43 on: May 24, 2008, 03:14:11 PM »
Anyone who would write the above is either clueless in a world record way, or is one huge troll.

Either way, not worth responding to guys.
depends on how ya look at it. it's kinda fun to watch him dig himself in deeper and deeper :rofl :rofl
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Offline TwentyFo

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Re: who really believe in your rights...
« Reply #44 on: May 24, 2008, 10:03:17 PM »
Anyone who would write the above is either clueless in a world record way, or is one huge troll.

Either way, not worth responding to guys.

Sorry that I have my opinions. Not gonna let Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, or anyone else who claims to have conservative values tell me other wise. So far no one has even considered what I said. I say the things that you guys feel deep inside, but are afraid to say. Please for the sake of our country wake up and realize what is happening. Find out for yourself and maybe you will see the light.
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