Author Topic: Why isn't alternative energy the number 1 election issue?  (Read 809 times)

Offline AquaShrimp

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Why isn't alternative energy the number 1 election issue?
« on: May 23, 2008, 08:40:54 PM »
I am utterly confused.  Gas prices are at $4 a gallon, predicted to rise to $6 by the end of the year.  The alternative fuel technologies are definitely there (cellulosic ethanol and algae-oil).  But money is required to speed the research and build infrastructure.  Why aren't all the candidates pushing this? 

Offline GtoRA2

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Re: Why isn't alternative energy the number 1 election issue?
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2008, 08:45:14 PM »
They are all in the pocket of big oil? ;)

Offline AKIron

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Re: Why isn't alternative energy the number 1 election issue?
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2008, 09:02:55 PM »
Why isn't domestic drilling being pushed?
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Why isn't alternative energy the number 1 election issue?
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2008, 09:08:09 PM »
Why isn't domestic drilling being pushed?
this is gonna sound dumb.
the main reason that our elected officials aren't pushing this stuff is because they don't have to live in the "everyday" joe's reality. they don't have to struggle to make ends meet.
i think they're also getting money from these companies to NOT do this research. kinda sucks really, but it seems there's really nothing we can do anymore. if we vote out the incumbents, the ones we vote in are just gonna do exactly what all of their predecessors have been doing.....nothing.

butcha know what>? i STILL think we live in the best country in the world.

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Offline DREDIOCK

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Re: Why isn't alternative energy the number 1 election issue?
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2008, 09:29:07 PM »
They are all in the pocket of big oil? ;)

Bingo!

I dont know if its true or not.
but I remember reading about a year ago how Republicans are supported by the big companies

And the Democrats are supported by the owners and shareholders of the big companies.
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Offline AquaShrimp

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Re: Why isn't alternative energy the number 1 election issue?
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2008, 09:32:35 PM »
All the oil we pump from Alaska, and sent down the Alaskan pipeline is actually sold to Asia.  Its cheaper for us to import oil from the Middle East than it is to pump it from Alaska.

Making our own oil would solve so many problem.  Its feasible, the technology is definitely there (wiki "cellulosic ethanol").

Offline DREDIOCK

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Re: Why isn't alternative energy the number 1 election issue?
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2008, 09:35:43 PM »
it seems there's really nothing we can do anymore. if we vote out the incumbents, the ones we vote in are just gonna do exactly what all of their predecessors have been doing.....nothing.

<<S>>

Exactly why they keep trying to insult our intellegence with the candidates they put up for us to vote on.

Think of it like professional wrestling
Vince McMahon puts two people in the ring.
The people love to wath the fight.
Doesnt matter who wins. in the end Vince McMahon still wins
Death is no easy answer
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Why isn't alternative energy the number 1 election issue?
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2008, 09:36:58 PM »
Exactly why they keep trying to insult our intellegence with the candidates they put up for us to vote on.

Think of it like professional wrestling
Vince McMahon puts two people in the ring.
The people love to wath the fight.
Doesnt matter who wins. in the end Vince McMahon still wins

scary, but very good analogy i think
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Offline bj229r

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Re: Why isn't alternative energy the number 1 election issue?
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2008, 09:41:37 PM »
Because alternative energy isn't the answer now, nor will it be for a long time. We can get new fields explored and well into production before many of the current 'alternative' energy ideas are proved or disproved--doesn't mean that drilling oil and figuring out new methods of producing energy are mutually exclusive. At any rate, making oil furtures less appealing to speculators, and improving the value of the dollar are the best way to decrease gas prices in the near-term
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Online Captain Virgil Hilts

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Re: Why isn't alternative energy the number 1 election issue?
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2008, 10:05:47 PM »
It takes the energy equivalent to that contained in a gallon of petroleum based fuel to create a gallon of ethanol. A gallon of ethanol has about 1/2 the energy contained in a gallon of petroleum based fuel. Never mind what it takes to haul that gallon of ethanol to the station. There also are very few refineries capable of blending ethanol into gasoline. Which RAISES the cost of gasoline, and REDUCES the mileage you get from that gallon of gasoline. We're already throwing BILLIONS at ethanol, from every direction. It's helping. I paid an extra $0.30 a gallon for my gasoline last weekend, and it carried me only 90% as far. It works freakin GREAT!
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Offline AquaShrimp

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Re: Why isn't alternative energy the number 1 election issue?
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2008, 10:21:35 PM »
It takes the energy equivalent to that contained in a gallon of petroleum based fuel to create a gallon of ethanol. A gallon of ethanol has about 1/2 the energy contained in a gallon of petroleum based fuel. Never mind what it takes to haul that gallon of ethanol to the station. There also are very few refineries capable of blending ethanol into gasoline. Which RAISES the cost of gasoline, and REDUCES the mileage you get from that gallon of gasoline. We're already throwing BILLIONS at ethanol, from every direction. It's helping. I paid an extra $0.30 a gallon for my gasoline last weekend, and it carried me only 90% as far. It works freakin GREAT!

Cellulosic ethanol, not regular ethanol.  Regular ethanol only uses the starch from the plant.  Cellulosic ethanol is able to use the entire plant. 

Quote
Cellulosic ethanol yields 80 percent more energy than is required to grow and convert it.
^ Ratliff, E. 2007. "One Molecule Could Cure our Addiction to Oil". Wired Magazine 15 (10).

Cellulosic ethanol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellulosic_ethanol

Offline Shaky

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Re: Why isn't alternative energy the number 1 election issue?
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2008, 10:24:49 PM »
All the oil we pump from Alaska, and sent down the Alaskan pipeline is actually sold to Asia.  Its cheaper for us to import oil from the Middle East than it is to pump it from Alaska.

Making our own oil would solve so many problem.  Its feasible, the technology is definitely there (wiki "cellulosic ethanol").

Is there anything wich is NOT an evil conspiracy to you?

http://www.snopes.com/politics/gasoline/alaskaoil.asp
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Offline Masherbrum

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Re: Why isn't alternative energy the number 1 election issue?
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2008, 10:26:12 PM »
According to some on this BBS, the supply of Crude of Limitless.   Why worry, there's plenty.    :aok
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Offline Charon

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Re: Why isn't alternative energy the number 1 election issue?
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2008, 11:50:13 PM »
Quote
Cellulosic ethanol, not regular ethanol.  Regular ethanol only uses the starch from the plant.  Cellulosic ethanol is able to use the entire plant.

And one of these days, somewhere in the future, it may arrive. Especially once the numerous technical issues are solved, and once you get to a cost point where developing an infrastructure might be worth while.

Until then we have ready supplies of cheap oil. Not cheap now because of the weak dollar and the move of significant investment money including pension funds into the energy markets as a hedge against inflation after the collapse of the housing market. And the rampant speculation that similarly followed the housing market collapse, by the same general folk, looking for the next big wave to ride before the bubble bursts. Trading volume on crude is about 100 times what it was in 2005 according to a conference I attended earlier this week, where crude prices were a main topic of discussion in at least three of the sessions. The current positions suggest it will get worse, driven by the markets that account for about $50 on a current bbl of oil, with $30 being the devaluation of the dollar hit. Basically $80 bbl not related to natural market conditions, "big bad oil" or even evil OPEC -- but to financial policy and trading entities.

Once this current oil bubble pops -- and it MAY be sooner than expected -- all of that alternative energy that's only alternative at $40+ bbl will be long forgotten as we dump the Priuses like yesterday's tuna fish for the next Hummer on the market. Just like we have for several cycles already and will in the future. It was just 2000 when OPEC was going to really get tough and keep "high" crude prices in a basket at $22-$24 and everyone was worried about such high prices. There's little fundamentally to suggest the reality of 2000 will never return. Just like during the glory days of the 1990s and $10 bll crude there was every indication that the other reality, t1973, was not that far off as we moved to the SUV era. Only thing missing were the tailfins. All it takes is for all of the new supply coming online now at these high oil prices to surpass rapidly shrinking demand and a panic will set in on the markets.The difference between an oil glut and an oil shock is very small. A handful of percentage points, maybe less, in the supply vs demand equation. A lot of people are making a lot of money now, but the fall will be painful and hopefully only take out the speculators and not pension funds, etc.

Simple.

Also why it's so hard to get any real investment in these alternatives. We've been down this road before. We have a lot of expensive energy, but before too long oil will be back to 1990s levels. Until the process starts all over again. OPEC can make a hell of a profit at $20 - $40 and still undercut most of the biofuel and "hard oil" alternatives with ease.

Now, we could agree to a tax mechanism to keep gasoline in the US artificially high at a $40 - $60 equivalent and subsidize alternative fuels like we currently do somewhat with corn ethanol at $.45 cents per gallon and biodiesel at $1 gallon. From your pockets straight to the agriculture and biofuels industries. In the process we would encourage sensible cars and sensible driving and travel choices like they do in Europe (but to an even greater extent). But then when the market price of crude is at $15 and a gallon of gas "could" be had for $1.50 instead of the artificial $2.50 -- well, lets see the American motorist buy into that.

Charon

Offline CAP1

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Re: Why isn't alternative energy the number 1 election issue?
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2008, 12:15:46 AM »
And one of these days, somewhere in the future, it may arrive. Especially once the numerous technical issues are solved, and once you get to a cost point where developing an infrastructure might be worth while.

Until then we have ready supplies of cheap oil. Not cheap now because of the weak dollar and the move of significant investment money including pension funds into the energy markets as a hedge against inflation after the collapse of the housing market. And the rampant speculation that similarly followed the housing market collapse, by the same general folk, looking for the next big wave to ride before the bubble bursts. Trading volume on crude is about 100 times what it was in 2005 according to a conference I attended earlier this week, where crude prices were a main topic of discussion in at least three of the sessions. The current positions suggest it will get worse, driven by the markets that account for about $50 on a current bbl of oil, with $30 being the devaluation of the dollar hit. Basically $80 bbl not related to natural market conditions, "big bad oil" or even evil OPEC -- but to financial policy and trading entities.

Once this current oil bubble pops -- and it MAY be sooner than expected -- all of that alternative energy that's only alternative at $40+ bbl will be long forgotten as we dump the Priuses like yesterday's tuna fish for the next Hummer on the market. Just like we have for several cycles already and will in the future. It was just 2000 when OPEC was going to really get tough and keep "high" crude prices in a basket at $22-$24 and everyone was worried about such high prices. There's little fundamentally to suggest the reality of 2000 will never return. Just like during the glory days of the 1990s and $10 bll crude there was every indication that the other reality, t1973, was not that far off as we moved to the SUV era. Only thing missing were the tailfins. All it takes is for all of the new supply coming online now at these high oil prices to surpass rapidly shrinking demand and a panic will set in on the markets.The difference between an oil glut and an oil shock is very small. A handful of percentage points, maybe less, in the supply vs demand equation. A lot of people are making a lot of money now, but the fall will be painful and hopefully only take out the speculators and not pension funds, etc.

Simple.

Also why it's so hard to get any real investment in these alternatives. We've been down this road before. We have a lot of expensive energy, but before too long oil will be back to 1990s levels. Until the process starts all over again. OPEC can make a hell of a profit at $20 - $40 and still undercut most of the biofuel and "hard oil" alternatives with ease.

Now, we could agree to a tax mechanism to keep gasoline in the US artificially high at a $40 - $60 equivalent and subsidize alternative fuels like we currently do somewhat with corn ethanol at $.45 cents per gallon and biodiesel at $1 gallon. From your pockets straight to the agriculture and biofuels industries. In the process we would encourage sensible cars and sensible driving and travel choices like they do in Europe (but to an even greater extent). But then when the market price of crude is at $15 and a gallon of gas "could" be had for $1.50 instead of the artificial $2.50 -- well, lets see the American motorist buy into that.

Charon

only real problem with this is that regardless of how much the price of crude drops, where ever the price of a gallon of gas is at that point in time, it'll remain. possibly drop .50 or so, but it won't come back to where it was....last year.

<<S>>
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