Author Topic: Why isn't alternative energy the number 1 election issue?  (Read 718 times)

Offline AquaShrimp

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Re: Why isn't alternative energy the number 1 election issue?
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2008, 06:57:09 AM »
Is there anything wich is NOT an evil conspiracy to you?

http://www.snopes.com/politics/gasoline/alaskaoil.asp

Oh good.  I've heard several people repeat that so-called fact.  I never bothered to research it myself. 

I don't buy into conspiracies.  The point of this thread wasn't to point to some conspiracy about politicians and big oil either.  In fact, Charon provided me with the answer I wanted.

Offline WWhiskey

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Re: Why isn't alternative energy the number 1 election issue?
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2008, 08:09:08 AM »
All the oil we pump from Alaska, and sent down the Alaskan pipeline is actually sold to Asia.  Its cheaper for us to import oil from the Middle East than it is to pump it from Alaska.

Making our own oil would solve so many problem.  Its feasible, the technology is definitely there (wiki "cellulosic ethanol").

all that oil is sent to asia because we dont have the refinery capacity to refine it ourselves!
if you listen to big oil,  they have told us  the answer over and over for years, build refineries,, and drill at home!

we have proven oil feilds that will run 60 million cars for 60 year in this country and enough N.G. to run 160 million homes for the same 60 years, along with other untaped supplies, that would add up to a total of 118 years, if only we could drill and refine it! the cost of most of this oil would be around $55/70 per barrel, so anytime we say we are going to to produce this oil ,opec cuts the price of there crude to say $15 per barrel, that price along with shipping cost comes out to be just cheap enough for us not too produce our own oil!

refinery capacity in the U.S. has gone down by 40% in the last thirty years, while our usage has gone up! it cost alot of money to ship oil half way around the world! money that could be spent here at home!

the epa and the gov. have stoped big oils ability to produce new grounds in this country or build new refineries, yet we want the oil so we pay the price!
Flying since tour 71.

Offline Lye-El

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Re: Why isn't alternative energy the number 1 election issue?
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2008, 09:51:28 AM »
all that oil is sent to asia because we dont have the refinery capacity to refine it ourselves!
if you listen to big oil,  they have told us  the answer over and over for years, build refineries,, and drill at home!



So why pump more domestic oil than you can refine? Oh, yeah, They can keep the price of gas high and sell all that extra oil they pump overseas. Got to keep those exorbitant profits flowing to the CEOs.

If they want to drill here the oil pumped should stay here until such a time that we pump more than we can consume. Why do we import oil if we don't have the capacity to refine it.


i dont got enough perkies as it is and i like upen my lancs to kill 1 dang t 34 or wirble its fun droping 42 bombs

Offline Nefarious

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Re: Why isn't alternative energy the number 1 election issue?
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2008, 09:56:33 AM »
Doesnt matter who wins. in the end Vince McMahon still wins

So who is Vince McMahon in this situation?
There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!

Offline Jackal1

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Re: Why isn't alternative energy the number 1 election issue?
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2008, 10:20:42 AM »
Because alternative energy isn't the answer now, nor will it be for a long time.

 :aok Bingo.
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline WWhiskey

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Re: Why isn't alternative energy the number 1 election issue?
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2008, 10:39:20 AM »
So why pump more domestic oil than you can refine? Oh, yeah, They can keep the price of gas high and sell all that extra oil they pump overseas. Got to keep those exorbitant profits flowing to the CEOs.

If they want to drill here the oil pumped should stay here until such a time that we pump more than we can consume. Why do we import oil if we don't have the capacity to refine it.


i think we agree!!
we should be building refineries as fast as possiple  , but that will still take some time,  so at the same time we must drill to lower the price of crude by increasing supply, and stoping our dependancy on foriegn oil in the future
Flying since tour 71.

Offline Charon

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Re: Why isn't alternative energy the number 1 election issue?
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2008, 11:11:31 AM »
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only real problem with this is that regardless of how much the price of crude drops, where ever the price of a gallon of gas is at that point in time, it'll remain. possibly drop .50 or so, but it won't come back to where it was....last year.

Nope. No history at all to suggest that (we've been here before) nor does common sense. The only thing to delay the drop in price are the price positions on product in inventory or in the distribution channel. However, the devaluation of the dollar will keep it about 20-30 percent above the natural market regardless.

The overwhelming core cost component in gasoline is the price of crude -- not refining and certainly not retail. Taxes are a big part too. There are plenty of independent refiners producing gasoline and diesel so there is little ability to artificially keep gasoline prices high. They also have to compete with imported gasoline on the international market. So the wholesale price will quickly adjust.

Gas itself is sold by thousands of independent marketers and retailers. It is the only industry that posts the price of a core product in huge letters on the street for the consumer to see and comparison shop. About as transparent a retail market as you can get. Still very competitive and price driven. A big play for this industry is riding an advantage for 10 cts on a gallon net maybe, instead of 3 cts and it's easier to get that whopping 10 cents -- maybe -- if the prices are low as opposed to high. High prices like today are actually bad for retailers.

Charon


Offline Charon

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Re: Why isn't alternative energy the number 1 election issue?
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2008, 11:35:42 AM »
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So why pump more domestic oil than you can refine? Oh, yeah, They can keep the price of gas high and sell all that extra oil they pump overseas. Got to keep those exorbitant profits flowing to the CEOs.

If they want to drill here the oil pumped should stay here until such a time that we pump more than we can consume. Why do we import oil if we don't have the capacity to refine it.

It's remarkable how the all powerful oil companies did such a poor job of being evil overlords during the 1990s. The major integrated oil companies don't set the markets. They benefit when prices are high and become nothing special by any means from a profit or investment standpoint when prices are low.

As to crude and refined products. We get those where they a cheapest. Sometimes imports are cheaper. With the devalued dollar a lot of core commodities from food to fuel are attractive to foreign buyers. We have as much refining capacity, without having overcapacity, as the industry needs not just for the current super high demand periods (created by your and my vehicle choices and driving and commuting habits) but for a 1990s - style slump.

If you want to nationalized the oil company, set prices or set windfall profit taxes and screw the American driver for decades to come (proven economic failures for both the companies and their customers) then go ahead. I know you can find grandstanding politicians to go along with such bad ideas. All "keeping our oil here" means is nationalizing our oil industry which migh be almost acceptable IF we could produce more oil than we consumed. Which we can't. Or if we subsidized with our tax dollars $40 - $60 oil which might seem neat until crude prices quickly and easily dropped below that threshold.

Remember, no one itched at paying $1.50 for gasoline, and the oil companies could hardly get investment and consumers could have given a crap about alternative energies, hybrids or conservation. Canyonaro! Now that we see the results of our decisions, and we feel our pain, we will make decisions that help correct the market back to lower prices -- until we repeat the cycle.

Offline Nashwan

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Re: Why isn't alternative energy the number 1 election issue?
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2008, 12:58:47 PM »
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So why pump more domestic oil than you can refine? Oh, yeah, They can keep the price of gas high and sell all that extra oil they pump overseas. Got to keep those exorbitant profits flowing to the CEOs.

The US has more than enough refinery capacity to refine all the oil produced domestically.

US oil production is currently about 5 million barrels a day.

US refineries are currently refining about 15 million barrels day. They have capacity to refine about 17.6 million barrels a day.

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all that oil is sent to asia because we dont have the refinery capacity to refine it ourselves!

No, the US exports about 26,000 barrels of crude oil a day. That's 0.5% of US domestic production, and about 0.15% of total US crude oil supply.

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refinery capacity in the U.S. has gone down by 40% in the last thirty years

No, US refinery capacity has increased slightly compared with 30 years ago. In 1978 US refineries had a total capacity of 17.44 million barrels day.

In 2008, US refineries have a capacity of 17.59 million barrels a day.

Offline Holden McGroin

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Re: Why isn't alternative energy the number 1 election issue?
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2008, 01:19:37 PM »
Big Oil did not stop nuclear power licensing and construction.

Big Oil did not hold ANWR off limits.

Big Oil did not hold the Florida and California coasts off limits to new drilling.

Big Oil did not stop a oil and natural gas drilling project off Cape Hatteras.

 
Holden McGroin LLC makes every effort to provide accurate and complete information. Since humor, irony, and keen insight may be foreign to some readers, no warranty, expressed or implied is offered. Re-writing this disclaimer cost me big bucks at the lawyer’s office!

Offline Holden McGroin

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Re: Why isn't alternative energy the number 1 election issue?
« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2008, 02:29:47 PM »
Big Oil did not stop the Cape Cod wind farm project.

Big Oil is not fighting the Shetland Islands wind farm project.

Big Oil did not fight Maine's Beaver Ridge Wind Farm.

Holden McGroin LLC makes every effort to provide accurate and complete information. Since humor, irony, and keen insight may be foreign to some readers, no warranty, expressed or implied is offered. Re-writing this disclaimer cost me big bucks at the lawyer’s office!

Offline AquaShrimp

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Re: Why isn't alternative energy the number 1 election issue?
« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2008, 02:30:42 PM »
One natural resource (oil) cant be in detriment to other natural resources (fisheries/waterfowl).

Offline bj229r

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Re: Why isn't alternative energy the number 1 election issue?
« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2008, 02:35:03 PM »
One natural resource (oil) cant be in detriment to other natural resources (fisheries/waterfowl).
They are portrayed as mutually exclusive things by the hysterical leftists, but do not have to be
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers

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Offline WWhiskey

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Re: Why isn't alternative energy the number 1 election issue?
« Reply #28 on: May 24, 2008, 03:40:03 PM »
The US has more than enough refinery capacity to refine all the oil produced domestically.

US oil production is currently about 5 million barrels a day.

US refineries are currently refining about 15 million barrels day. They have capacity to refine about 17.6 million barrels a day.

No, the US exports about 26,000 barrels of crude oil a day. That's 0.5% of US domestic production, and about 0.15% of total US crude oil supply.

No, US refinery capacity has increased slightly compared with 30 years ago. In 1978 US refineries had a total capacity of 17.44 million barrels day.

In 2008, US refineries have a capacity of 17.59 million barrels a day.

im not sure were you get those numbers from? the gov. says refinery capacity is down, the oil companies say it is down, the refiners themselve say they don t have enough capacity, and no new refineries have been built , so even if there was expansion to the existing refineries, it could not have kept up with the rise in demand!!
 also why are they not pumping the oil out of the new wells being drilled every day in the mid west? because they have no place too go with it! it is cheaper to by foriegn oil and have it refined on its way here than too ship ours there, refined and returned ! the cheapest way too produce gas from the crude is to put the refinery next too the source, then sell the fuel localy! why else would gas in saudi be .15 cents a gallon? because it is refined at the source! venezuela is another place were gas cost's a lot less, because it is refined there as it is produced! what they dont need ,they sell to the world market! the cost of producing gas from oil has not risen that much, with the exeption of the 30 plus different grades the epa has convinced or state gov, we need! but in doing so they have drivin up the cost of transportation of that fuel to the U.S. and hampered the ability of those refineries we do have to produce at peak output since they have to change the mixture all the time, depending on were it is going!

i also dont understand why you seem to be against building new refineries??they would have too meet strictor standards than the old ones,, they would operate at lower output levels therby being much safer!
and because of redundincy there would be less fluctuation in the price of gas when there was a problem
example; 50 refineries in operation, one goes down, less impact than 28 refineries and one goes down
Flying since tour 71.

Offline Nashwan

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Re: Why isn't alternative energy the number 1 election issue?
« Reply #29 on: May 24, 2008, 05:06:41 PM »
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im not sure were you get those numbers from? the gov. says refinery capacity is down, the oil companies say it is down, the refiners themselve say they don t have enough capacity, and no new refineries have been built , so even if there was expansion to the existing refineries, it could not have kept up with the rise in demand!!

The numbers come from the US government, the Energy Information Administration, part of the Department of Energy. They also come from BP, one of the major oil companies.

There was a refinery problem in the US following Katrina and the explosion at a BP refinery. Those were both short term factors. US refineries now have a fair bit of excess capacity.

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also why are they not pumping the oil out of the new wells being drilled every day in the mid west?

I should think they are. Mid West oil production fell from its high point in the mid 80s until 2004. Since then it has risen year on year:

2004 - 159 million barrels
2005 - 162
2006 - 167
2007 - 172

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because they have no place too go with it!

That would be a bit odd as US refineries have 3 times the capacity necessary to refine all domestic production.

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! it is cheaper to by foriegn oil and have it refined on its way here than too ship ours there, refined and returned !

Probably, but that's not what's happening. The US is buying foreign oil because it produces about a third of what it needs. If you have to import oil, importing some of it as finished product makes sense, especially as European refineries produce more gasoline than they require, due to the widespread use of diesel cars in Europe.

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why else would gas in saudi be .15 cents a gallon? because it is refined at the source!

No, gasoline is cheap in Saudi Arabia because the Saudi government subsidises it. Just the cost of the crude oil to produce a gallon of gasoline cost about $2.90 at the moment.

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venezuela is another place were gas cost's a lot less, because it is refined there as it is produced!

No, again it's cheap because it's subsidised. That's one of the problems that's causing oil prices to rise so much. Countries like Venezuela, Saudi and Iran are booming because they are getting so much more for their oil. At the same time, their citizens are not paying the full price for oil, so their oil consumption is rising rapidly. That means these countries have less oil to export.

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the cost of producing gas from oil has not risen that much,

No, it hasn't. Unfortunately the cost of the raw materials has gone up tremendously.

Enough crude oil to make a gallon of gasoline costs about $2.90. Refining it, transporting it and selling it costs about 43c, including the profits. The state and federal government take about 47c in taxes. That's where the $3.80 goes.

It's nothing to do with refining, it's purely down to the price of crude oil

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i also dont understand why you seem to be against building new refineries??they would have too meet strictor standards than the old ones,, they would operate at lower output levels therby being much safer!

They'd cost more. Oil refineries cost a lot of money to run. They have large capital costs. For maximum efficiency you need to keep the refineries fully utilised. The more spare capacity you have, the more you pay for gasoline.

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and because of redundincy there would be less fluctuation in the price of gas when there was a problem
example; 50 refineries in operation, one goes down, less impact than 28 refineries and one goes down

There isn't really a problem now. The US had a problem with Katrina, but that was an extreme event. Remember, you have to import oil anyway, importing finished gasoline isn't really any more difficult.