Author Topic: how to anticipate a Tempest...  (Read 685 times)

Offline BarryBD

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how to anticipate a Tempest...
« on: May 26, 2008, 08:59:16 AM »
OK, I got some probs vs a tempest...

I mostly fly spits (8, 16, 9), but I can't find a good solution for a tempest on your six...

Any tips and hints?


Offline bj229r

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Re: how to anticipate a Tempest...
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2008, 09:55:48 AM »
Go into the DA and fly one yourself at the lake--lotsa people do that--and try to pounce on various planes---gives ya good idea of what the plane has difficulty doing--they roll like crap, unless ya throw in heap much rudder. Most folks just come in at 400+, blazing away with the endless hizooka rounds Tempests have, and hope for a golden bb, and if they miss, baclk up to the heavens for rinse and repeat. If the guy is real good....hmm
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Offline waystin2

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Re: how to anticipate a Tempest...
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2008, 12:32:25 PM »
The 8 & 16 will just barely outclimb the Temp on Wep.  Try using turning climbs to bleed the Temp's speed into something much slower and better suited to the Spitfire's performance envelope.  Also the 9 & 16 will outroll the Temp, so barrel roll randomly to get the Temp out of phase and possibly setup an overshoot, reversal or snapshot.  The 8, 9, & 16 will all outturn the Temp at lower speeds, again get him to slow the fight down.  Never try to dive and extend from Temp, as they easily have the speed to catch you.  I am sure there are some folks coming along with more complete info, but I fly the Spit family quite a bit and wanted to throw out my 2 cents.  Good luck.
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Offline Yossarian

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Re: how to anticipate a Tempest...
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2008, 01:15:26 PM »
The 8 & 16 will just barely outclimb the Temp on Wep.  Try using turning climbs to bleed the Temp's speed into something much slower and better suited to the Spitfire's performance envelope.  Also the 9 & 16 will outroll the Temp, so barrel roll randomly to get the Temp out of phase and possibly setup an overshoot, reversal or snapshot.  The 8, 9, & 16 will all outturn the Temp at lower speeds, again get him to slow the fight down.  Never try to dive and extend from Temp, as they easily have the speed to catch you.  I am sure there are some folks coming along with more complete info, but I fly the Spit family quite a bit and wanted to throw out my 2 cents.  Good luck.

Could you please describe what you mean by "turning climbs"?  Also, what are the stick movements to do a barrel roll?

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Offline waystin2

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Re: how to anticipate a Tempest...
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2008, 03:10:36 PM »
Well here is my best description of a turning climb...Wep engaged, with tightest turn possible balanced with highest climb rate possible.  A climbing spiral maybe?  As far as how to do a barrell roll go to training website look under the Miscellaneous menu at bottom of scroll menu on left of screen, select Trainers files, Murdr has a barrel roll defense text write-up and film for download.  I highly suggest you download and review all of it(practice & study), as his info and teaching is great.   :aok
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Offline Spatula

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Re: how to anticipate a Tempest...
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2008, 04:55:32 PM »
The tempest is an extremely capable fighter and a formidable opponent. It has just about everything it needs in spades to provide a tough challenge for most aircraft with the exception of sustained turn performance. The tempy actually rolls fairly well, not like a 190 or spit 16 or F4u, but well enough, and much much better than a tiffie.
Your best bet is to get it slow and into a slow-speed turn contest where it wallows. I dont just mean an endless one-circle tail-chase necessarily either. Once slow and turning, the spit will eat it alive. Even at moderate speeds the spit will trump it.
The spit is better in a dive too, IMO, with better control authority at high speeds. Ultimately the temp will be much faster than a spit at all alts, so chasing one or running from one is not a good idea.
Another tactic is to use its speed and lower roll-rate against it by letting it pounce on you with lots of smash. You can set these sorts of situations up, and most temp drivers happily ablige because they think they're safe BnZing you. You will be looking to stay out of their guns (4x20mm = deadly) and force an overshoot by changing direction faster than they can - scissors or barell-roll defenses work well here. Dont turn too much, just enough to get out of plane and ahead of their guns before rolling back around onto their overshooting crate, if done right you will get a shot opportunity or even can follow up and knock em off their perch if the speed differential is small at that point. If done right it's very effective and even if you dont get the snapshot or follow them up, your bleeding their precious speed and E, and getting into the spits preferred envelope where you will own them unless they tuck tail and run - in which case you can take it as a moral victory.
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Offline Yossarian

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Re: how to anticipate a Tempest...
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2008, 05:49:37 PM »
Well here is my best description of a turning climb...Wep engaged, with tightest turn possible balanced with highest climb rate possible.  A climbing spiral maybe?  As far as how to do a barrell roll go to training website look under the Miscellaneous menu at bottom of scroll menu on left of screen, select Trainers files, Murdr has a barrel roll defense text write-up and film for download.  I highly suggest you download and review all of it(practice & study), as his info and teaching is great.   :aok

Ok, thanks.
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Offline EskimoJoe

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Re: how to anticipate a Tempest...
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2008, 06:37:08 PM »
If you still don't quite get the concept of a barrel roll or spiral climb, you can schedule an appointment with my in the TA and I will try to help you out.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: how to anticipate a Tempest...
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2008, 10:56:54 PM »
OK, I got some probs vs a tempest...

I mostly fly spits (8, 16, 9), but I can't find a good solution for a tempest on your six...

Any tips and hints?



wait till he thinks he has a firing solution on ya, then turn hard, with some veritcle component. he'll either overshoot and give you a possible shot, or he'll go bakc up and try again. keep doing this till you're co-alt, and at that point you've won, as he'll probably turn tail and run :D
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Offline CAP1

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Re: how to anticipate a Tempest...
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2008, 11:00:01 PM »
The tempest is an extremely capable fighter and a formidable opponent. It has just about everything it needs in spades to provide a tough challenge for most aircraft with the exception of sustained turn performance. The tempy actually rolls fairly well, not like a 190 or spit 16 or F4u, but well enough, and much much better than a tiffie.
Your best bet is to get it slow and into a slow-speed turn contest where it wallows. I dont just mean an endless one-circle tail-chase necessarily either. Once slow and turning, the spit will eat it alive. Even at moderate speeds the spit will trump it.
The spit is better in a dive too, IMO, with better control authority at high speeds. Ultimately the temp will be much faster than a spit at all alts, so chasing one or running from one is not a good idea.
Another tactic is to use its speed and lower roll-rate against it by letting it pounce on you with lots of smash. You can set these sorts of situations up, and most temp drivers happily ablige because they think they're safe BnZing you. You will be looking to stay out of their guns (4x20mm = deadly) and force an overshoot by changing direction faster than they can - scissors or barell-roll defenses work well here. Dont turn too much, just enough to get out of plane and ahead of their guns before rolling back around onto their overshooting crate, if done right you will get a shot opportunity or even can follow up and knock em off their perch if the speed differential is small at that point. If done right it's very effective and even if you dont get the snapshot or follow them up, your bleeding their precious speed and E, and getting into the spits preferred envelope where you will own them unless they tuck tail and run - in which case you can take it as a moral victory.

only prob here, is that you're assuming it's flown properly. most i see in a tiffy, or tempest just bnz in it........if they can't get ya that way, they have nothign else. straight down, shoot, straight up. when their victem becomes co-alt, they run, because they don't know anything else. now i do know there are those that do know how to fly them....but the majority don't.

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Offline BarryBD

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Re: how to anticipate a Tempest...
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2008, 01:45:14 AM »
OK, thnx, very usefull info :aok

However, I encountered the following :

A pilot came on BnZ with his Temp.  I waited untill he was 600 out to break right.  He took my wing of from 600 (this happened twice by the same pilot, so it wasn't a lucky shot).

I decided to break right, and do a Barrel roll when he was 800 out...

He followed me into the roll, killing me at 200...

I'm a bit desperate now, because I feel there's nothing I can do about it :huh

I can stand my own in a 1vs1 even a 1vs2, but my SA is very bad in furball...  I'm still a 2 month old noob :D

Offline Spatula

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Re: how to anticipate a Tempest...
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2008, 03:51:31 AM »
OK, thnx, very usefull info :aok

However, I encountered the following :

A pilot came on BnZ with his Temp.  I waited untill he was 600 out to break right.  He took my wing of from 600 (this happened twice by the same pilot, so it wasn't a lucky shot).

I decided to break right, and do a Barrel roll when he was 800 out...

He followed me into the roll, killing me at 200...

I'm a bit desperate now, because I feel there's nothing I can do about it :huh

I can stand my own in a 1vs1 even a 1vs2, but my SA is very bad in furball...  I'm still a 2 month old noob :D

remember due to internet lag, if distance is reading 600 on your computer, its reading 400 in there's and they're already firing. If you're getting hit, you are likely doing a couple of things wrong: your too predictable, and/or not pulling enough Gs to keep out of their sight.

Rather than just banking to a fixed angle and pulling back on the stick (which makes you turn through a single plane of maneuver), try constantly adjusting your bank angle slightly while pulling back on the stick. This makes you corkscrew a little and keeps you maneuvering constantly 'out of plane' which makes you less predictable. Most shots they get on you if you're doing a hard break turn are totally blind shots - eg you disappear under their nose and then they fire where they think you are. If you don't do something to hinder your predictability you run a higher risk of getting tagged. It doesn't need to be much roll input, just enough to stop them getting an easy shot. I hit and kill countless people by predicting where they'll be based on their currently trajectory and firing. Its normally a totally blind shot - i cant see em, even if i wasn't all but blacked-out. Don't be predictable and your survival rate goes up!

Make sure you're pulling enough Gs so that they have to lead so much and pull so hard you will disappear under their nose before they can fire. A good rule is if they're faster than you (eg closing on you) and you're starting to black out, they will be further into their black-out than you. When they are blacking out and your under their nose, this is the perfect time to maneuver for your reversal. They literally wont see it coming :D
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Offline Bruv119

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Re: how to anticipate a Tempest...
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2008, 05:43:45 AM »
All depends on how good the pilot in the Tempest is.  If i'm flying it there is very little chance to escape. 

Your options being in a spit are to turn the hell out of the way to avoid his shot and to bleed his energy/speed advantage.

You CAN outturn him
You CAN  catch him in a vertical climb if your speed is good.

You CANNOT run from him.
You will DIE in just a couple of pings.

I wish I had filmed a Tempest mission by the Prawns yesterday.  I took on 6 of them in my Spit8.  I was very conservative and forced the fight forever upwards. Spiral climbing, doing my best to bait their heavy metal higher and higher always engaging the highest con. 

The Tempest don't like being higher than 15k ish and is even more sluggish up higher.  In the end they gave up trying to gang my little spit and I pretty much ruined their whole run   :t.




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Offline CAP1

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Re: how to anticipate a Tempest...
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2008, 07:57:41 AM »
OK, thnx, very usefull info :aok

However, I encountered the following :

A pilot came on BnZ with his Temp.  I waited untill he was 600 out to break right.  He took my wing of from 600 (this happened twice by the same pilot, so it wasn't a lucky shot).

I decided to break right, and do a Barrel roll when he was 800 out...

He followed me into the roll, killing me at 200...

I'm a bit desperate now, because I feel there's nothing I can do about it :huh

I can stand my own in a 1vs1 even a 1vs2, but my SA is very bad in furball...  I'm still a 2 month old noob :D
sounds like you did a flat turn? and sounds like you pulled a relativly light turn too? when i see the bogie about 1k out, i roll one way or the other(i think the tempest torques right, but not sure) so i'd go left against him. as he looks like he's lining up, tighten your turn....a lot. remember, he's probably going at least 100mph faster than you, and although he may THINK he can make that tight turn, he won't. as you tighten it up, kick a little top rudder, and a little top aileron, to kinda roll her up and  out of that turn. and most imortant: KEEP YOUR VIEW ON THE BANDIT THE ENTIRE TIME!. you'll probably need to adjust what you're doing during the manuver, and there's a good chance that he'll overshoot, giving you one quick shot at him. if not, then he's gone back up, in which case you've given yourself a couple seconds to regain lost e while he's climbing back up to his safe perch. you've also grabbed a coupe hunderd feet in alt too, which is good, as it takes a bit away from him. if he drops on ya again, then try something slghtly different, so as to not let him know what exactly you're gonna do this time. key is to keep him from having an easy firing solution on ya. i know well flown temps are hard to beat, but as mentioned earlier, i think the majority are flown my pilots with only one thing in their bag of tricks.....

<<S>>
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Offline SlapShot

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Re: how to anticipate a Tempest...
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2008, 08:21:41 AM »
OK, thnx, very usefull info :aok

However, I encountered the following :

A pilot came on BnZ with his Temp.  I waited untill he was 600 out to break right.  He took my wing of from 600 (this happened twice by the same pilot, so it wasn't a lucky shot).

I decided to break right, and do a Barrel roll when he was 800 out...

He followed me into the roll, killing me at 200...

I'm a bit desperate now, because I feel there's nothing I can do about it :huh

I can stand my own in a 1vs1 even a 1vs2, but my SA is very bad in furball...  I'm still a 2 month old noob :D

You need to use the vertical in situations such as that. If a tempest is bearing down on you, instead of doing a flat break turn at 800, 600, 200 ... go vertical and do a high yoyo. The tempest will have to pull hard and most likely miss the shot. Also, the best way to spoil any attack is to turn into your opponent ... and the sooner you turn into them, the better.

If you are fighting in a furball, and your SA is weak, you will get killed repeatedly and quickly. As your SA improves, so will you chances of survival

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