Flying Tiger Tactics in The P-40

[waystin2]

Playing this game like the Flying Tigers fought is a great way to get belittled and insulted by manly children.

Too true Yeager too true!

[AVG]

Truth to tell, I was quite surprised by a number of the negative comments.

I posted the quote because I found it very interesting historically, as well as providing insight into the benefit of a faster roll rate; something I had not read before.

It was in no way a recommendation for folks to switch to the P-40.  I fly it exclusively in RW and MW in honor of my uncle who was a member if the AVG, and because it's much like fishing with 4# test monofiliment line.

AVG

[angelsandair]

I do wish the  P-40 was updated. It's such a pretty bird. Even with the older graphics on it, its still looking pretty good. 

[Noir]

I do wish the  P-40 was updated. It's such a pretty bird. Even with the older graphics on it, its still looking pretty good. 

the P-40 is pretty new in AH, you won't see it updated before a while. What a flying brick btw, we had them some fso's ago against a6m2's and it was hell on earth. Of course you don't want to engage a zero at Co-E in a P40. Zeros climb better, accelerate faster and have better guns.

[BnZ]

problem i have when i fly zekes, is that when they dive away, they never come back for ANY sort of fight....not even an attempt at energy fighting.

<<S>>

Why, then fly a 190-A5 against P-40s. An interesting matchup that is both historical and reasonably fair for both sides. The P-40 can not, and probably will not try to run away.

Of course, one won't be able to win just by managing the throttle and doing in-plane turns. For many players, this is an intolerable situation. They'd rather keep on flying something that has a strong advantage in turn radius, and keep on grousing when faster aircraft make use of that advantage.

Which is to say, if one takes off in a Zero, one has made the choice to use a plane with a decided  advantage in a turning dogfight versus nearly everything else in the set. Zero vrs. most other rides in a turning fight is like having a knife in a fist-fight. Expecting players flying other things to not use their speed advantage at need IS every bit as silly and hypocritical as it would be to demand that Zeros quit using its ability to turn on a dime.

<S>

[zarkov]

Playing this game like the Flying Tigers fought is a great way to get belittled and insulted by manly children.

Interestingly, according to one account of the AVG that I skimmed through a few years ago, the AVG often didn't use the tactics they were credited with using.  Those were the tactics they were taught by Chennault, but in the heat of the moment, they often broke down and tried to turn with the Japanese fighters they engaged.  In some cases, they didn't even seem to fly in pairs but flew in vics.  That they still managed to survive and succeed had probably more to do with the ruggedness of the P-40 (and the anemic armament of their enemies), the heavy hitting power of THEIR armament (and the flimy construction of the Ki's they flew against) and, probably most importantly, the fact they had working radios whereas the Japanese often had to make do with communications WWI-style, i.e. hand signals and wing wagging.

[SmokinLoon]

I like the P40E for multiple reasons: First, it is always under-rated and people either A: ignore it, or B: try and saddle up and unless they are in an uber plane (Spit16, Typh, La7, Nik, etc), they are going to have to be smart, a good shot, and have good speed/E built up.  Otherwise, the P40E can put up a good fight.  The second reason I like it is for the "nostalgic" reasons.  It is a glamorous plane with a true following and not just a "flash-bang" plane like the La7, Spit16, and Nik.  To take one up and be able to work with it successfully is an accomplishment. 

My piloting ACM "skillz" are average at best and my gunnery is less than stellar, and obvioudly the P40x platform presents many challenging problems.  It doesnt turn well, it has average speed, has good firepower but with a low ammo load, and climbs and acceratesl like grandma with a walker.  However, it does roll well and dive with the best of them.  Just like the historical evidence shows... the P40 pilot has to pick and chose their fights, otherwise one of three things has to happen: one, the enemy pilot makes a major ACM blunder; two, the P40x pilot gets really lucky in some manner; or three, the P40x pilot has better know his plane like the veins on his noodle and make the utmost best possible decisions while engaged.  Otherwise... the P40x is behind from the beginning.

Planes fun to engage against or "saddle up" on are: the Typhoon, Fw190, or any other plane that doesnt rely on turning for survival.  The Hurricane IIC, either A6M, most Spits, and the La7 are planes that the P40 should stay away from unless of course the above mentioned planes are lower alt, distracted by trying to shoot down your buddy, and God is smiling upon you.          

 

[Ghosth]

First off, you need to remember that the AVG was operating in the very early days of the war.

The AVG had its first combat on 20 December 1941, when aircraft of the 1st and 2nd squadrons intercepted 10 unescorted Kawasaki Ki-48 "Lily" bombers.

And second, as the line above so succinctly points out, the real aim of the AVG was to stop the bombing.
To do that you attack the bombers if possible.

(Stolen from Wiki on the AVG group) On 23 December, Mitsubishi Ki-21 "Sally" heavy bombers of the 60th, 62nd and 98th Sentais, along with single-engined Mitsubishi Ki-30 "Ann" attack bombers of the 31st Sentai, sortied against Rangoon. They were escorted by Nakajima Ki-27 "Nate" fighters of the 77th Sentai. The JAAF formation was intercepted by the AVG and RAF Brewster Buffalos of 67 Squadron. Eight Ki-21s were shot down for the loss of three AVG P-40s.

Again, you notice, you don't see any "Nate's" shot down, they were all KI-21 bombers.

(More snippage) On 25 December, the JAAF returned, reinforced by Ki-21s of the 12th Sentai and Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusas of the 64th Sentai. Hayabusa, Japanese for "Peregrine Falcon", was code named "Oscar" by Allied pilots. A total of 63 bombers escorted by 25 fighters were committed. These were intercepted by 12 P-40s of the AVG's 3rd Squadron and 15 Buffalos of 67 Squadron. Ten Japanese aircraft were lost in the resulting battle: two Ki-43s, four Ki-27s and four Ki-21s. The Allies lost five Buffalos and three P-40s.

Outnumbered against their escort 2 to 1, the AVG did well considering.  After the first attack the Japanese obviously put more escorts with their bombers. Causing the AVG to engage Nates and Oscars.  Typical KI-43 armament is a pair of machine guns. And thats it. To them the P40 have a clear firepower advantage. Nate armament was 2 × 7.7 mm Type 89 machine guns, 500 rounds/gun or 1 x 12.7 machine gun and 1 x 7.7 machine gun on later models.

So a pair of .30 cal mg's vs 4 .50s I can well believe the AVG believed in shooting at max range and hoping to scare the pilot into making a mistake.

If they'd ever met A6m's with experienced pilots it would have been a whole nuther ball game for the AVG.

[fyvsix]

So if some of you guys run into Tex Hill somewhere you are going to take a shot at him with this crap about the AVG not being good because they did not fight Navy Zeke's. C'mon guys, the AVG put up a good war record dealing with what was handed to them and making do. What they did will matter and be cared about long after anyone is playing this game and grousing about it. Lots of AVG guys did turn out to be great pilots throughout the war, Howard, Pappy to name two. It's awful presumptuous for any of us to make judgments about the guys who were there doing the real thing and putting it on the line.

If the guy makes a pass and dives aways to live and fight another day then I don't see what the problem is. I don't engage unless I have the advantage if I can help it either.

[Squire]

"If they'd ever met A6m's with experienced pilots it would have been a whole nuther ball game for the AVG."

...The A6M2 was a better fighter than the Ki-43 and Ki-27, but the IJAAF pilots were every bit as good as the IJN were, especially in 1941-42. The AVG also used the inferior P-40B for almost all their missions, not the later P-40E.

That and the primary job of the AVG was shooting down bombers and recon a/c, not duelling fighters.

Their combat record is very good no matter how you angle it, as was the 23rd FG who came after them.

Also I would question the supposed superiority the Zero had over the P-40, the RNZAF and RAAF, and USAAF units seemed to do well in New Guinea and the Solomons (incl Guadalcanal) vs the IJN, giving at least as good as they got.

On a final note, I will take a P-40E any day vs an A6M2 in an FSO (or any other SEA event). Its faster, dives much  better, rolls faster, has much better high speed handling, and has a much better gun package. Fly it smart and its a fine ride.

[Ack-Ack]

ps) AFAIK no AVG P-40s ever engaged a 'real' Zero - namely, the Type-0 Carrier Fighter A6M series.

The Oscar was basically the IJAAF's version of the Zeke.  It was built to similiar specifications, although lighter and not as rugged at the Zeke nor the fire power.  So while not a Zeke, it did perform very similiar to the Zeke combat wise.


ack-ack

[Squire]

Yes, its worthy to note it has a lower wing loading than the A6M2. Its a nightmare to fight if you get caught at low speeds facing it, under 200 TAS it would loop behind you faster than you could think of your favorite curse word.

[Ack-Ack]

Later versions also fielded 20mm cannons.


ack-ack

[Krusty]

I've always liked reading about the AVG. Dogfights had a very interesting episode about the pilots there, chasing down bombers at night, later escorting B-24s, etc. I have to say that there are some select time frames and areas where I enjoy replaying, or reading about, or watching a show about. Among them are the Flying Tigers, BOB, and a couple of others.

Personally I'm not the best in a P-40. That said I really dislike the way they are currently modeled. The engines' outputs doesn't match the E6B readings (which are historical), yet the top speed is the same. So this could mean their acceleration and climb rates are way too high, if the plane is producing too much power, but not reaching speed, extra drag could compensate for this, or the entire thing could just be buggy as hell (my guess).

The E retention is a bit odd, especially for a draggy airframe, the flaps, the way the -E is modeled more like a -K, is 700lbs heavier than the -40B yet both have the same turn radii with and without flaps.

That said, part of me really likes them. I've had some very fun fights in a P-40E. Once I was outnumbered 4-1 and made it back after a very prolonged fight. Other times I've not made it back but still had fun. Making it out of TT alive in a -40B required some friendly cover but was quite a sortie.

It can be fun, sort of like flying a 109E, but it can also be underpowered for the MAs (also sort of like flying a 109E).

Upcoming Rangoon '08 should be a hoot.