Author Topic: Flying Tiger Tactics in The P-40  (Read 1450 times)

Offline AVG

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Flying Tiger Tactics in The P-40
« on: June 07, 2008, 07:09:23 AM »

The following is part of an interesting article that’s posted on P-40.com:


A.V.G. Tactics
by Erik Shilling


Tactics:
First and foremost the Flying Tigers only attacked IF they had the advantage. (Altitude or speed.)

We used to listen to Tokyo Rose quite frequently. On several of her broadcast, she called the Flying Tigers cowards because we refused to stay and fight, then challenged us to stop running away. We thought this was quite humorous, and at the same time, knew our tactics were hurting them.

Also on some of Tokyo Rose's broadcasts, the number of AVG aircraft that the Japanese claimed to have shot down, was the exact number Japanese aircraft that we had destroyed. (We only lost 4 pilots in aerial combat.) This was the figure I used in giving our kill ratios. It had no bearing on the number of aircraft we or they destroy. Even Ford has said that we killed approximately 400 air crew.

Here area couple examples of the AVG attacking enemy fighters:

Attacking from head on: 

If you attack head on, which the enemy was reluctant to do because our guns outranged the fighters, they would normally pull up. (If he started turning away, he would already be at a disadvantage.) You started firing at Max range, and then dive away, under these conditions we didn't turn and tangle with a Jap fighters.

Attacking the enemy from a 3 to 6 o'clock position:

Why roll rate was important: One must remember that all maneuvers, except for a loop, started with a roll. The slower the roll rate the longer it took before the turn began.

1. If he turned away, he set you up on his six; a most undesirable position for him, because he would be a dead duck.

2. The enemy invariably turned toward you, which was both normal and anticipated. With his slower roll rate, you could beat him into the turn, get a deflection shot at him, and when you slowed down to where he started gaining on you in the circle, you rolled and dove away before you were in his sights. If you haven't tried it don't knock it.

This is where roll rate really came into the picture. As far as Japanese fighters were concerned, their inferior roll rate was at all speeds. Above 240, it would take the Zero 3 second before he attained bank angle for max turn. (And the airplane doesn't start turning until bank angle is established.)

Since you could see him starting to bank you could easily bank more quickly and establish max bank angle within 1 second, and pull whatever "Gs" necessary to establish lead.

At this speed, and with your lead already established, you could maintain lead for some time before speed bled off to where the Zero could turn inside, you got the hell out. (Don't forget same speed and same "G" equal same radius of turn. Above 220 IAS the radius of the circle was determined by pilots ability to withstand "Gs." You could turn with the Zero as long as the speed was above 220 IAS.

If his reaction was only to pull at these speed the "G" factor still applies. The Zero could not take 6 "Gs," and the P-40 could pull over 9 "Gs" and most fighter pilots could "momentarily" withstand 9 "G's" or more without blacking out.

If the situation was reversed and the Zero was attacking you your roll rate would save your bellybutton by allowing you to roll to max turning bank, using 6 "Gs" or more, then continue rolling to inverted and dive. Rolling 180 degrees to dive would take less than 2 seconds, the Zero took 6. The Zero would never get a shot. He couldn't get lead, and by the time he was inverted you would already be out of range, gaining speed much more rapidly than the Zero.

It can be seen from the above illustrations that in the beginning roll rate was the primary factor in starting any maneuver except the loop. After bank angle was established then speed was the primary factor. To escape from a zero, roll rate again became the primary factor and then speed.

Anyone who disagrees with the above has never been in combat, and as far as I know, few books if any, bring this out.

Erik Shilling



Offline Kweassa

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Re: Flying Tiger Tactics in The P-40
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2008, 09:54:08 AM »

 Unfortunately for Mr.Shilling, the above tactics (which is sound and rational) would be considered "cherrypicking" or "bore and zoom" for most self-described l33T people in AH. :D

ps) AFAIK no AVG P-40s ever engaged a 'real' Zero - namely, the Type-0 Carrier Fighter A6M series.
 
 

 

 


Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: Flying Tiger Tactics in The P-40
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2008, 11:26:12 AM »
Unfortunately for Mr.Shilling, the above tactics (which is sound and rational) would be considered "cherrypicking" or "bore and zoom" for most self-described l33T people in AH. :D

ps) AFAIK no AVG P-40s ever engaged a 'real' Zero - namely, the Type-0 Carrier Fighter A6M series.
 
So what Jap plane did those P40's shoot down?

 

 

 


Proud grandson of the late Lt. Col. Darrell M. "Bud" Gray, USAF (ret.), B24D pilot, 5th BG/72nd BS. 28 combat missions within the "slot", PTO.

Offline Kweassa

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Re: Flying Tiger Tactics in The P-40
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2008, 11:33:22 AM »

 Nates.

 

Offline TimRas

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Re: Flying Tiger Tactics in The P-40
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2008, 11:55:21 AM »
FYI,
1. AVG did not fight Zeros, only JAAF fighters.
http://www.warbirdforum.com/planes.htm
2. Shilling did not have any air to air kills.
http://www.warbirdforum.com/vics.htm


Offline CAP1

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Re: Flying Tiger Tactics in The P-40
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2008, 12:15:33 PM »
HHMM..sounds like another picker making his case. try quoting Richtoffen or Hartmann now.

than, since this is a gme in which we all fly cartoon planes, c'mon down and risk your cartoon life. they're only 14.99 a month, for unlimited planes and lives :aok
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Offline Widewing

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Re: Flying Tiger Tactics in The P-40
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2008, 01:14:01 PM »
FYI,
1. AVG did not fight Zeros, only JAAF fighters.
http://www.warbirdforum.com/planes.htm
2. Shilling did not have any air to air kills.
http://www.warbirdforum.com/vics.htm



Shilling volunteered to fly a modified Photo-Recon Tomahawk that Shilling reworked, installing a specialized camera and the related hardware. Shilling flew hair-raising photo missions deep inside Japanese air space. As a pilot, Chennault regarded Shilling as his best aerobatic pilot and asked him to pilot a Tomahawk in answer to a challenge made by the Brits. Shilling's Curtiss Vs an RAF Brewster at Rangoon: Shilling easily won the duel. After the AVG disbanded, Shilling flew C-46 transports over the "Hump". After the war, he continued to fly for the Nationalist Chinese. Later, he flew as a contract pilot for France, and piloted the last aircraft out of Dien Bein Fu. Eventually, he was hired by Air America and flew many covert missions in South East Asia.

Shilling also did a stint at Langley Field as a test pilot, flying various experimental aircraft, including the YP-37 and the Bell YFM-1 Airacuda.

Tom Cleaver goes into greater detail here: http://www.warbirdforum.com/erikrip.htm


My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline BaDkaRmA158Th

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Re: Flying Tiger Tactics in The P-40
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2008, 02:41:36 PM »
Ww brakes the noise of discontent, yet again.  :salute
Perhaps this man simply knew the abilitys of the zeke, period.
~383Rd RTC/CH BW/AG~
BaDfaRmA

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Offline BaldEagl

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Re: Flying Tiger Tactics in The P-40
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2008, 06:09:30 PM »
While I'm sure that the tactics described worked well for the Flying Tigers, and would also work in the MA's, the fact remains that the Flying Tigers were only given one life each.  We, on the other hand, have an unlimited supply.

This means that we are able to push the aircrafts limits in a much more "dangeous" fashion.  I've seen some pretty good P-40 pilots in the middle of furballs doing some pretty amazing things with them.  Skills that, no doubt, would not be learned in a real world conflict.

Some play for realism, some play to mix it up and to develop and test their skills.  In the end, it's those who play for the latter that end up being the great sticks in the game.  Those who can fly anything from a disadvantaged position and prevail.  I still aspire to one day be among that group but to each their own.
I edit a lot of my posts.  Get used to it.

Offline BnZ

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Re: Flying Tiger Tactics in The P-40
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2008, 09:02:53 PM »
Few things to remember here:

The description of tactics used here CLEARLY indicates that were using E fighting tactics on fighters aware of their prescence and not just "one pass, haul ass" all the time.

It is also to remember that compared to the early-war Japanese airplanes, the P-40 is clearly an energy fighter, but compared to much of the LW set, it is an angles fighter.

Offline BnZ

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Re: Flying Tiger Tactics in The P-40
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2008, 09:17:06 PM »
I'm not so sure these skills would not be learned...there have been some amazing moves pulled off in real dogfights that match anything done in AHII. I guess some real pilots have some sort of natural ability.

IMO, there is a happy medium in our sim  between the extremes of timidity and stupidity. I think there is a great place to learn all that can be learned about such odd things as trying to angles fight a Spit with a 190...its called the DA/TA. Using the MA for training seems to me like picking fights in a biker bar to learn martial arts instead of going to a gym. In the MA, if its reached the point where you HAVE to disengage, and CAN disengage, you probably should disengage IMO...I don't believe in rewarding the bananas out there for flying an easier-maneuvering but slower aircraft. IF you train properly outside the MA, you still have the ability to turn around and fight like a cornered animal against long odds, if the disengaging option is closed.





  Skills that, no doubt, would not be learned in a real world conflict.

Some play for realism, some play to mix it up and to develop and test their skills.  In the end, it's those who play for the latter that end up being the great sticks in the game.  Those who can fly anything from a disadvantaged position and prevail.  I still aspire to one day be among that group but to each their own.

Offline Messiah

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Re: Flying Tiger Tactics in The P-40
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2008, 12:03:21 AM »
Sounds like a bunch of dweebs.
Messiah(The O.G.)
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Offline valdals

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Re: Flying Tiger Tactics in The P-40
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2008, 09:10:59 AM »
good tactics from what i read. being a zero pilot; i have trashed plenty of p40s. i have not lost a zero to a p40 in one on one combat. i will not dive with a p40. i wait till he messes up. turns, climbs, or flying to where he cant dive away and cream him. i rarely fight in a zero above 7k.

Offline CAP1

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Re: Flying Tiger Tactics in The P-40
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2008, 09:58:59 AM »
good tactics from what i read. being a zero pilot; i have trashed plenty of p40s. i have not lost a zero to a p40 in one on one combat. i will not dive with a p40. i wait till he messes up. turns, climbs, or flying to where he cant dive away and cream him. i rarely fight in a zero above 7k.

problem i have when i fly zekes, is that when they dive away, they never come back for ANY sort of fight....not even an attempt at energy fighting.

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Offline Yeager

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Re: Flying Tiger Tactics in The P-40
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2008, 05:43:57 PM »
Tactics:
First and foremost the Flying Tigers only attacked IF they had the advantage. (Altitude or speed.)
Playing this game like the Flying Tigers fought is a great way to get belittled and insulted by manly children.
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns