Author Topic: Help with the proper times to use rudder in a turnfight. (P-38)  (Read 3700 times)

Offline DaveJ

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Lately I've realized that im not using rudder all that much in my 38, and that perhaps im losing some turnfights in it because I don't use it correctly, or at all.

I'm fine with the BnZ use of rudder (leading shots, bleeding airspeed, etc), but I can't quite figure out when to use it in a turnfight. At low stall speed, I've found that it sometimes brings me to the edge of snap rolling and augering. I've also seen people turn their plane on a dime at the top of a rolling scissors with rudder (I think), and I'd like to figure out how to do that.

Perhaps a problem is that I use a mouse and keyboard for all my controls. I used the Q and W for flaps, and A and D for rudder. I also need to use the keyboard numberpad for viewing my enemy, so I cant use rudder and look at the time same time. I have to be doing one or the other because my right hand is on the mouse controling the plane.

But in general, please tell me when do you all use rudder in a turnfight ( what airspeed, position of you relative to the enemy, whether you use rudder with flaps, etc). Also, I'd like some input on whether I should stop using a mouse and try to use a joystick, though there are some good mouse pilots out there.

Thanks

Dave
« Last Edit: June 12, 2008, 03:35:33 PM by DaveJ »
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Offline Strip

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Re: Help with the proper times to use rudder in a turnfight. (P-38)
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2008, 03:37:58 PM »
DaveJ,
    You will never experience the full joy of succesfully mastering rudder control if your using a keyboard. I am sure you have heard it before but a 25 dollar twisty stick will improve your skill far faster than anything else.

Strip

Offline Motherland

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Re: Help with the proper times to use rudder in a turnfight. (P-38)
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2008, 03:53:00 PM »
The P38 doesn't really need too much rudder due to it's counter rotating props. Really, all you have to do is make sure your slip indicator stays centered (it's right underneath the gunsight).

Offline Strip

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Re: Help with the proper times to use rudder in a turnfight. (P-38)
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2008, 03:56:28 PM »
What Motherland said is true but....

There are many time in a fight were rudder can help you get a gun solution or keep you out of one.

Strip

Offline Murdr

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Re: Help with the proper times to use rudder in a turnfight. (P-38)
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2008, 04:02:41 PM »
Mainly when maneuvering in a P-38, rudder is used to assist in starting a roll.  Other than that, rudder input will mostly tend to upset the plane stability more than anything.  I do dance the rudder to counter wing dips, but I also am using rudder pedals.  To be that precise with a twist stick is difficult, and with keyboard is impossible.  

Id highly suggest getting a cheap 4 axis flight stick.  Trying to be as detailed as this question asks with a mouse, is like trying to do clockwork wearing mittens.

Offline Motherland

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Re: Help with the proper times to use rudder in a turnfight. (P-38)
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2008, 04:04:05 PM »
What Motherland said is true but....

There are many time in a fight were rudder can help you get a gun solution or keep you out of one.

Strip
I don't fly the 38 much, but from what I remember it doesn't have enough rudder authority to spoil someones shot. Not as well as you could with say, a 109 or an F4U.

Offline CAP1

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Re: Help with the proper times to use rudder in a turnfight. (P-38)
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2008, 04:34:40 PM »
DaveJ,
    You will never experience the full joy of succesfully mastering rudder control if your using a keyboard. I am sure you have heard it before but a 25 dollar twisty stick will improve your skill far faster than anything else.

Strip
twisty stick is good......rudder pedals are better :D
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Offline Soulyss

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Re: Help with the proper times to use rudder in a turnfight. (P-38)
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2008, 06:23:34 PM »
I got a couple good sticks in the squad that use the mouse, I'll throw a link to this thread in the squad forum and see if I can't get their attention.

I use pedals myself, not sure how and when I use them would work well if you're relying on the keyboard for your axis input, I would imagine you would have less precise control as a result. 

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Offline DaveJ

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Re: Help with the proper times to use rudder in a turnfight. (P-38)
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2008, 06:48:02 PM »
Alright, I'm now using a twisty stick that I had lying around the house.

It's been a big change, and it will take time to get used to. Sometimes I accidentally twist the rudder when I don't want to and that thorws off an easy shot, but other times the twist helps to get a last minute gun solution. I also noticed it helped me turn better, especially on a merge when I'm desperate to get on someone's 6.

 I've been talking to Pawz about it and he says that he uses rudder "alot", so I'm going to see how successful I am with it in turnfights. It doesn't help that I still have much learning to do about flying the 38 properly. That's a whole different issue.  :D
« Last Edit: June 12, 2008, 06:54:21 PM by DaveJ »
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Offline Soulyss

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Re: Help with the proper times to use rudder in a turnfight. (P-38)
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2008, 06:52:34 PM »
There are certain situations where you have to be real careful with the rudder, one being turning at low speeds, hit the rudder at the wrong time and you'll spin it in with little warning. 

Typically I use rudder to help get the nose over for a deflection shot, or to help start the roll, I'll kick the rudder in the direction I'm trying to go to help get the plane started and try and keep the ball in the middle. 
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Offline mechanic

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Re: Help with the proper times to use rudder in a turnfight. (P-38)
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2008, 07:59:30 PM »
rudder yaw is the greatest axis known to man! You can use it or combine it with other control surfaces to do almost anything you like. From speed brake to gunnery essentials you must learn the plane you flying and its rudder intimately to succede. Many assume that the elevators and turning circle stats are the most important aspect of a turn fighter but the rudder of an aircraft and how each pilot chooses to use it is, in my mind at least, far more important.
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Offline mtnman

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Re: Help with the proper times to use rudder in a turnfight. (P-38)
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2008, 08:01:31 PM »
Using rudder is an awful important skill to acquire.  

It's obviously important in order to fly "coordinated", but we also use it to purposely fly "uncoordinated" at times too.  It can help minimize drag and conserve E, or can be used to maximize drag and "burn" E.  I often use liberal amounts of rudder to tighten rolls in my F4U, especially when I'm coming over the top on my barrel rolls.  I use it to tighten turns, or to delay my inboard wing from stalling.  Used incorrectly or at the wrong times, rudder can send you to the tower via an opponents bullets or via the ground.  

At first, my guess is you'll use it excessively or at inappropriate times, simply because you may accidently twist the stick and also because now it's easy to use.  I had the same problem when I went to rudder pedals.  I wanted to try out my "new toy", so I killed myself repeatedly by over-using it, hehe.  It also took me a long time to develop enough skill with it to make the correct actions automatic.

I'd recommend you purposely use it in some basic manuevers, and don't worry about it too much in actual fights...yet.  That will come with time as you become comfortable with its use.

Some basic things you can try-

1)Make sure you do not use Auto Takeoff.  There's some pretty basic rudder practice involved with taking off.  This is a "coordinated" use of rudder, so "Step on the ball".  Watch the indicator, and apply rudder to keep the ball centered.  If it goes right, apply right rudder.

2)Use a "slip" while landing.  Use full rudder to one side, and aileron to direct your path onto the runway.  You'll find your rate of descent increases, but airspeed doesn't, as long as you control it properly with elevator and throttle.  Practice landing on the CV this way too.  catching the wires even gives you an opportunity to be "precise" with your controls.  A slip is an example of "uncoordinated" rudder use, exposing the side of the fuselage to the slipstream and increasing drag.

3) Try some "point rolls".  Put your gunsight on a target on the horizon, and roll with aileron only.  You'll see the sight actually travels or "draws" a circle on the horizon, and you'll probably exit the roll nose down to some extent.  

Now try it like this.  Put the sight on the horizon, and KEEP it there (stationary) as you roll.  To do that, roll 90 degrees onto your RIGHT side, and stop the roll, holding the sight on the target with LEFT rudder.  Now roll inverted, and hold on target without rudder, but with down elevator.  Now go another 90 degrees onto your LEFT side, holding your nose up with RIGHT rudder.  And now roll another 90 degrees to finish.  That's a 4-point Roll.  Try these rolls at different speeds, and with longer "pauses" at each point.  Instead of rolling 90 degrees between points, you can instead roll 45 degrees, and make it an 8-point roll.  Master that and you'll have more rudder skill than many in the game.  Want a huge challenge?  Try to fly a simple left-hand circle at a constant altitude, but do it while continuously rolling.

You may find Auto Combat Trim does some goofy things here, but that's a different lesson.  Inverted flight is easier w/o the auto trim, at least in my opinion...

4)Spins, and spin recovery.  Get up around 8-10K, and pull the throttle back.  Use elevator to keep your nose up, and feed in rudder as you slow down.  That should snap you into a spin.  Now recover.  Neutral aileron and rudder, down elevator, and then some rudder opposite of the spin.  You're seeking a straight dive, and then to pull out.  Pull out abruptly as soon as the spin stops.  What happens?  Now try it again, but let your speed build and pull out smoothly.  Which works best?  Master spins and recovery at different speeds, altitudes, and with throttle on or off.  Try some different planes too.  A great recipe for a spin is slow flight with some elevator and rudder.  In other words, when you're in a turn fight.  You'll spin while fighting, so master recovering, or even catching them before they start.

5) Use some rudder as you do barrel rolls.  Try just a bit, and try quite a bit.  See the different results.  Also watch for different results at different speeds.

The more you can use rudder and make its use automatic, the better off you'll be.  At first you'll need to "think about it" a lot, so do that in a controlled situation.  Don't worry about it too much in combat situations.  As you get more familiar with it, it will take care of itself, with little or no thought from you.

MtnMan
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Help with the proper times to use rudder in a turnfight. (P-38)
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2008, 08:30:22 PM »


 I've been talking to Pawz about it and he says that he uses rudder "alot",

I'm the same way.  My rudders get just about as much as a work out as my flaps do.  In turn fights, I use them mostly to help with coordinated turns but as with all things, YMMV.


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Offline uptown

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Re: Help with the proper times to use rudder in a turnfight. (P-38)
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2008, 08:47:20 PM »
Any of of you twin engine guys throttle the engines separately?I've messed around with it a bit and it works well, especially with rudders.
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Offline Soulyss

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Re: Help with the proper times to use rudder in a turnfight. (P-38)
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2008, 08:53:42 PM »
I've found specific situations where differential throttle is a help, but outside of those cases no, I haven't found much use.  Single engine maneuvers in the 38 suck a lot of E, the payoff has to be pretty big to make it worthwhile.

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