Effective Guns Range

[Sixr]

Mustang Aces (William Hess)

John B. England (17.5 kills)
"I immediately dove after him (109) and closing to about 800 yards at 3000 ft. The enemy pilot saw me and started to break into me and was heading for a large aerodrome. I was traveling at approx. 400 mph and made a very tight turn into him and closed to about 500 yards. I placed the enemy aircraft properly within the K14 sight and squeezed the trigger. I got strikes all over the engine and cockpit. The enemy aircraft, burning and smoking excessively, went out of control and crashed into a river 1000 ft below."

Howard "Deacon" Hively (11 kills)
"For a second it looked as if I wasn't closing, so I took two short bursts at about 800 yards just for meanness, when I noticed I was closing rapidly. I chopped everything~~~"

Raymond Littge  (10.5 kills)
"I then bounced a 109 that was shooting at a P51. This E/A broke for the deck immediately , and I started shooting at 800 yards to 150 yards, seeing many strikes and setting the left wing on fire"

Louis "Red Dog" Norley  (10.3 kills)
"As two 190D's headed toward the bomber formation, Norley chased one of them and opened fire at 600 yards. Just as he fired Norley saw the American bombers ahead of the 190 and pulled off to the right, but the E/A continued on into the bomber formation and collided with one of the forts. Norley noted he didn't think the ramming was intentional because the German was not firing as he closed on the bombers"
<sounds like PK at 600 yards>

Robin Olds  (13 kills)
"Fearing that the other 109 would do the same (break for the deck), I ranged him carefully with the K14 gun sight and allowed a small bit of deflection above to take care of the sizable distance between us, which was about 450 yards. I squeezed off a very short burst and got hits, much to my surprise. The Jerry started a slow break to the right. Taking my time I ranged him again, still allowing a little for the distance. Another short burst produced more hits"

Chuck Yeager  (11.5 kills)
"I dropped my tanks and then closed up to the last Jerry and opened fire at 600 yards, using my K14 sight. I observed strikes all over the ship, particularly heavy in the cockpit. He skidded of to the left smoking, streaming coolant~~ fire ~~ spin.."

"I closed up on the next 109 to 100 yards, skidded to the right, and took a deflection shot of about 10 degrees. I gave about a 3 second burst and the whole fuselage split open and blew up after we passed"  

[juzz]

note: K-14 gunsight, very important!

[Jekyll]

Sixr.  I really enjoyed your post.  It's always wonderful reading actual pilot accounts of air to air kills.

But just what were you trying to say?  

P.S.
 

Howard "Deacon" Hively (11 kills)
"For a second it looked as if I wasn't closing, so I took two short bursts at about 800 yards just for meanness, when I noticed I was closing rapidly. I chopped everything~~~"

It's a shame the Deacon didn't have the current AH icon system working for him.  He would have been able to judge his closure to the yard-per-second exactly  

------------------
C.O. Phoenix Squadron www.users.bigpond.com/afinlayson/index.htm
'feel the heat .......'


[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 01-01-2000).]

[Sixr]

I guess what I was trying to say is that many pilots took long shots with varying expectations for hits. Deacon didn't expect to hit from D8 without much info on the cons (it all happened too fast), but he knew it was possible. Others at 600 with a high degree of confidence of hits.

Its been said before, it's all matter of seat time firing the guns. The more you fire them at moving targets, the easier it is figuring lead in any setup. A long weekend of flying WB or AH gives you much more gun time than these Aces got in an entire tour of combat. It adds up.

We have icons, they had a K14 and Real Eyeballs(tm) viewing system. It's a wash..

It takes most people a long bellybutton time (if ever) to get good enough to get hits at 800 yards and not just consider it a waste of ammo, or meanness. True, you're still going to whacked by a FNG once in awhile if they spay the clip at you, but that's probably realistic too.

I would venture a guess that the vast majority of WW2 air kills were made by guys that only got 1 or 2 kills total, not any aces. I would also guess that they didn't usually get into nice firing positions for a shot, they sprayed when it looked close enough and hoped for the best. <is there any data on this?>

From what Pyro has said about the modeled gunnery, it's got everything we ever wanted in accurately modeled ballistics for every bullet. I don't think anyone can rationally argue that they did it wrong, seeing as its never been done before. Doing damage at 800 yards is very possible. Doing serious damage at 800 yards is not very likely unless you've practiced your gunnery, expend more ammo than is prudent, and a little lucky.

Get rid of the cockpit warping, add some audio feedback for speed, and this game would be a contender.

[-towd_]

toad why the hell would you shoot a a elk runnin at extreme distance. you are either hell on earth of a shot (as i myself am) or a bleed killer ( someone who wings a animal uncaring about its sufferin as it drags its guts for 5 or 10 miles till it dies of blood loss or falls and lies in agony till you cut its throat).  and in any case not a kind hunter.
do you claim that you hit a 20 to 40 mph movin target at 400 yards 3 out of 4 times ?  usin what a m2 or a howitzer? i find this to be patently impossible.

 assumin you  are god own shot and got a quick kill, what were you huntin with that will kill such a large animal quickly without to much lead for a teliscopic sight (they dont give you much if any room to lead a animal)weatherby? 50 cal sniper thing they have at gunshows ?  some monster mag? what were you aimin for heart or eyeball hehe?

not meanin to make you angry but if im wrong please explain how you pulled it off cause guns and ammo is gonna want to do a cover story on you. "worlds greatest shot"

[Jekyll]

After reading the last 79 posts I suppose I've come full-circle on this issue  

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that its not a gunnery issue, its an icon issue.

I've only ever flown in half a dozen or so WB scenarios, but the lack of range information in scenarios and in the WB Historical Arena shortened the range at which firing commenced, simply because the shooter didn't have the range info to help him estimate the precise amount of lead for that 500yd 90 degree deflection shot he was about to take.

So while I accept that the gunnery model is fine, I'd still like to hear alternatives to the current icon range model.  A sliding range bar beneath the aircraft identifier?  No range info at all for aircraft greater than 300yds away?  A change in icon colour/transparency depending on range?  

There simply has to be a better way of doing things than we have at present.

Suggestions please?

------------------
C.O. Phoenix Squadron
www.users.bigpond.com/afinlayson/index.htm
'feel the heat .......'

[Hristo]

Jekyll, I'd "blame" the icons. Also, sliding range bar sounds very nice.

Well, how about sliding range bar and country info only, with the bar under the plane ?

[Toad]

Jekyll:

Now I'm with ya bud! If HT says this is the best gunnery he can do, I am content. I know I couldn't program it at all, let alone better.

I DO think icons can be way improved (as in none or "the less the better").

Towd:

I shot those elk because I was elk hunting. Duh!

I can make the shots, I practiced a lot and it's no big deal in the group I hunt with. We can ALL do that <G>. We don't view 400 yards as extreme; maybe you do. 500 is long, 600 is getting towards extreme.

All of those elk were found down within 100 yards of where they had been hit, one just dropped in his tracks. Elk are not that hard to kill if you hit them in the heart/lung area. All were with a .300 Weatherby, Leupold Vari-X II set at 5X or 6X, 180gr Barnes X-Bullet at about 3000 fps (chrono).

Others in my group have killed walking elk at a measured 550; I haven't had that opportunity, but if it was a clear (no trees) shot I feel I could do it.

Sorry if you find it impossible; the group I hunt with has been hunting the same area for the last 30 years. The ranges to landmarks are known. We've seen each other do this many, many times.

I'm sure you'll understand that I really am not too concerned whether you, in particular, believe me. <G> The racks are on the wall.

Oh, BTW, I'm not the best shot in the group....<VBFG>.

Practice makes perfect...or at least "better".

[Maniac]

Good ideas on the icons, i hope HTC are listening.

// -nr-1-

[chisel]

This icon issue has been dicussed to death on AGW many many times with many many good ideas and they were'nt listening then. Infact they made them more accurate, down to the yard!  

Prove me wrong HTC.

------------------
Jumpin Jesus on a pogo stick! Everybody knows a burrow owl... lives... in a hole... in the ground!