Author Topic: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?  (Read 14723 times)

Offline guncrasher

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #60 on: April 16, 2015, 08:54:52 PM »
And he's an army pilot  :) :noid

arent they supposed to really pay attention to details?  it's like answering a question from a pilot that flew in the vietnam war.


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Offline Skyyr

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #61 on: April 16, 2015, 09:58:06 PM »
Why is everyone whining about it if it doesn't work? Because it's not "realistic"? Being able to use WEP on takeoff is much less realistic than engine cutting.

Perspective, folks.
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #62 on: April 16, 2015, 10:06:20 PM »
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Offline glzsqd

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #63 on: April 16, 2015, 10:26:23 PM »
Why is everyone whining about it if it doesn't work? Because it's not "realistic"? Being able to use WEP on takeoff is much less realistic than engine cutting.

Perspective, folks.

Flying inverted for half an hour isn't realistic either  :D
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Offline RufusLeaking

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #64 on: April 16, 2015, 11:14:00 PM »
In real life, how long does it take to restart a piston engine inflight?

How many switches?

Is it something to be done while dog fighting? (Never mind the Russian biplanes, which I think were the January plane on my WWII aviation calendar.)

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Offline RotBaron

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #65 on: April 16, 2015, 11:26:38 PM »
bumping a 7 year old thread to add that........ oooooo kay

did it loose its usefulness over that time span  :headscratch:
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Offline Skyyr

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #66 on: April 16, 2015, 11:36:48 PM »
In real life, how long does it take to restart a piston engine inflight?

How many switches?

Is it something to be done while dog fighting? (Never mind the Russian biplanes, which I think were the January plane on my WWII aviation calendar.)

Fuel pump on, mixture forward (1 hand motion). If the propeller is stopped, just push the starter. Less than a second.
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Offline Swoop

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #67 on: April 17, 2015, 05:23:01 AM »
So.....for aircraft that use a Coffman starter (Spitfires, Typhoons, most US radial engined birds).....?

Offline Swoop

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #68 on: April 17, 2015, 05:23:44 AM »
And when an aircraft engine is restarted in flight, is it always done with the throttle jammed wide open?

Offline waystin2

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #69 on: April 17, 2015, 06:24:28 AM »
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Offline Slade

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #70 on: April 17, 2015, 06:33:37 AM »
Quote
Actually your plane has more drag at idle than with the engine turned off.

That is my understanding too.

[Sidebar]
If you want to "put on the brakes" throw the rudder over to one side and drop your gear too. Also, if you are going too fast to drop your gear, with some planes I have found inverting then pulling back on the stick works well too  (that is making the plane go up while inverted).

Anyone else have any "putting on the brakes" techniques?
[/Sidebar]
« Last Edit: April 17, 2015, 06:49:27 AM by Slade »
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Offline DmonSlyr

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #71 on: April 17, 2015, 07:41:11 AM »
That is my understanding too.

[Sidebar]
If you want to "put on the brakes" throw the rudder over to one side and drop your gear too. Also, if you are going too fast to drop your gear, with some planes I have found inverting then pulling back on the stick works well too  (that is making the plane go up while inverted).

Anyone else have any "putting on the brakes" techniques?
[/Sidebar]


Don't drop the gear, simply no point, you will kill more E than necessary.

In most cases you don't want to "put on the brakes immediately" either while diving on someone or getting them to over shoot.

Doing these extra things like cutting engine off and putting out gear severly effect your E states to where you actually put yourself into a disadvantage. Also if you are slow on the bottons your timing will be off and you will burn all your E while the other guy is gaining it. It simply isn't a smart thing to do.

How to "put on the brakes"
If you are diving on someone you should spiral dive first and cut throttle to possibly get inside their nose up or down turn in hopes for a shot. You don't want to put on the brakes and try to stay on their 6 because they could easily barrel roll defense you and if you kill too much E you will die after they roll around you. Simply go full throttle and pull up and around. Next pass will be slower but chop throttle to make a shot and then if you miss gu n it and pull up and around again. You only want to chop throttle completely when you are finally slow on someone's  6 and they are attempting a BRD on you. If you are slow enough after a few pull arounds. Then you can work the throttle to get inside their BRD attempt. No need to turn off engine or pull out gear, as you will have completely lost your advantage and the fight could easily change tides from a skilled defensive pilot. If you get into a barrel roll scissor fight. You don't need to cut engine in order to get around faster, even the best pilots in the game do not ever cut engine unless they get into a flat spin situation, nor do the best pilots roll out gear. The key is timing, anticipation, throttle management, and understanding of your planes top performance in the stalls during your ACM.

If you are in a situation where someone is running up on your 6. You don't necessarily want to put on full breaks to get them to over shoot. This will hurt your E state and they will continue to BnZ you. Instead you want to try to get a little alt and do a nose down turn or attempt scissors technique into a BRD like explained in the first paragraph. BRD allow you to roll around a plane using their E against them. If they try to cut too much E and throttle, you can do the BRD and end up right on their 6. It is much more useful than trying to stick stir and lose all your E by cutting throttle to get them to over shoot.

All in all, it is basically an understanding of using the right ACM and tactics to get on an oppenets 6 or to reverse them if they are on your 6. Cutting engine and rolling out gear will effect your performance negatively and if you have a bad understanding of E, you will give up any chance of winning fights against good sticks that understand certain situations.

« Last Edit: April 17, 2015, 07:46:16 AM by DmonSlyr »
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Offline Slade

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #72 on: April 17, 2015, 08:23:15 AM »
Cool feedback DmonSlyr.  :salute

Quote
You don't necessarily want to put on full breaks to get them to over shoot.

My bad.  I should have been clearer to say it as: "in situations where that is an appropriate option".


So you have found that landing gear does not add air resistance and increase the rate of deceleration?  I wonder if that changed since I last tested this.
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Offline DmonSlyr

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #73 on: April 17, 2015, 09:20:10 AM »
Cool feedback DmonSlyr.  :salute

My bad.  I should have been clearer to say it as: "in situations where that is an appropriate option".


So you have found that landing gear does not add air resistance and increase the rate of deceleration?  I wonder if that changed since I last tested this.

Sure, it would add resistance, but the rate of deceleration you are trying to achieve would actually hurt you in the grand scheme of the fight against a good stick. If you blow all your potential E by rolling out gear, it limits your ability to regain that E and your oppenent may change the tide by attempting E styles or a nice barrel roll defense you still cannot get inside.  After they noticed you killed all your E rolling out gear,  good stick would recognize you are killing all of your E and compensate by using scissors to gain E in order to flip over you.  I mean, you'd see this from advanced sticks who know how to judge E, speed, and have timing to where they can avoid your shot attempts. By putting out gear you are killing your E rather than killing speed. In a fight killing speed is important at times, but killing E with gear down is dangerous!

For example. If you are diving on a plane and cut all of your speed to stay on their 6 and roll out gear to slow down even more, the guy could still use your E to his advantage and BRD, if he gets around you, you are dead meat because you killed all your E.

If you have a plane zooming on your 6. You want to avoid the shot with a nose down or up turn, and then attempt a BRD over them. Or get into a scissors and when the time is right BRD over them. You want to keep the most E as possible when making a plane over shoot so you may have a chance to get a shot off when they pass you. If you cut throttle and stick stir, it gives your oppenent an easier chance to pull up and over around. And once you are fluttering going 80 knots you make for an easy target.

Killing speed in a fight is different than killing E. I can kill a little bit of speed diving on a lower plane to try and get a shot off. But if I miss I can pour the coal to it and loop up and over for another try. I still have my E and height advatage after the over shoot. If I try to slow down immediately in order to make the shot and stay on their 6, this is dangerous because if they pull a nice BRD you won't be able to pull up and over because you killed all your E by letting out gear or trying to match their speed in the dive. It's about the experience of the pilot really and judging when it is a good time to kill the speed and stay on their 6 or to simply over shoot and pull around.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2015, 09:33:35 AM by DmonSlyr »
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Offline jeep00

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Re: Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?
« Reply #74 on: April 17, 2015, 10:28:22 AM »
It seems to me, with my limited experience doing this (never) and less limited experience witnessing it, that in game the engine "blip" allows a similar loss of air speed to cutting throttle, but the e retention seems to me to be considerably better with those who shut down vs cutting throttle. I.E. if I am already closing on them while throttling back and they cut off suddenly, I have gone full power yet they can stay on my six and climb, where those that have simply throttled back do not. Not a case of dissimilar aircraft either.
Again, this is my experience with seeing it and my attempts to understand it. Gaming? Probably but there are plenty of other ways that it happens without this level of complaint.