Cutting your engine: Valid tactic or Gaming the Game?

[SFRT - Frenchy]

I don't know about slowing down faster, but cutting the engine off helps neglecting the funky flight model when you go beyond the stall.



Also restarting an gas engine in flight is not hard as Skyrr mentioned, but rapid cooling and vapor lock might not make it instantaneous. I had numerous episodes where we had to fly around for a couple of minutes on one engine before getting the little *&^%$#@ would restart. Also on the fuel injected engines I flew there's a bit more involved than full rich. On the 402/414 or the 421 (it was an another life some time ago) you had to switch to main tank, set your prop forward of detent, set your mixture to full minus 2 inches and prime/motor the engine while playing with the mixture till it would 'catch', then keep massaging the mixture and power while gently bringing back the prop forward. It was no 'BOOM there she goes'.

So is it realistic? No it is not, but it compensates for the short comings of the FM to make it more realistic. 

[Skyyr]

On the "flap monsters" (F4U, F6F and others), in real life the flaps auto retracted when things were operating correctly.

A vast majority of the aircraft did not auto-retract. There are always exceptions, but you're citing the exception, not the rule. If we're discussing realism, the point stands.

[Babalonian]

Fuel pump on, mixture forward (1 hand motion). If the propeller is stopped, just push the starter. Less than a second.

Incorrect padawan.

Think how first one would kill their engine instantaneously while in flight.

Secondly, if you're flying (with forward speed supplying enough lift and control), and the prop isn't turning, you can try the starter, but if the prop isn't turning already, I doubt hitting the starter is going to change anything.

[saggs]

In a radial air-cooled engine, the starting process is extremely complicated figuring 10-15 steps before even engaging the starter..  Not to mention they had a phenomena called Hydraulic Lock after the engine was shut down..  Since radial engines use copious amounts of oil, the oil leaks into the cylinders after shut down and needs to be drained before a restart can be attempted.  THIS CANNOT BE DONE WHILE IN THE AIR and requires a mechanic to perform.. 

Shutting down a radial in flight is as simple as mixture to cutoff and mags off.  Restarting is basically the opposite mags on, then bring the mixture up, since the prop is windmilling the engine (assuming you're not in feather) you do not even need engage the starter, and the engine driven fuel pump will still be turning as well.  Although if the engine has been off long enough to cold soak, (more then a few minutes at altitude) you may need primer and boost before bringing the mixture up to restart it as well.

Hydro-lock (which is hydrostatic, not hydraulic) can only happen after sitting for an extended period of time, and with planes that are flown frequently it is not very common. In almost 2 years at my current job (where we fly dozens of P&W R2800s everyday) I've never heard of a hydro-lock incident. 

It is true that starting a big radial is more complicated then starting turbines, (especially when cold) but it's not that bad.  Heck, if I can do it, it can't be that hard.   Our typical cold start procedure (without going into the whole aircraft configuration checklist) is basically:  boost pump on low, engage starter, spin through 6 blades (4 crankshaft rotations with the gear reduction) to check for hydro-lock, 6 more blades just for for pre-oil, at 12 blades flip both on mags then hit the primer and boost, (at this point it'll sputter to life) keep on the primer as you slowly bring the mixture up to auto-rich, when you see a slight drop in RPM, release the primer and she should be running smooth.  Of course the number of blades we spin through before start varies with how hot or cold the engine is.




Back when I still played AH frequently, one of my complaints was that the engine management was way over simplified.  People flying around at full military power constantly without killing/overheating engines, and crazy rapid throttle changes (always at full RPM) without occasionally blowing cylinders and backfiring is just not realistic.  Not to mention managing mixture, cowl flaps, oil cooler doors, etc... etc..

I mean HTC has gone to great trouble to recreate realistic flight modeling and damage modeling.  But realistic engine modeling seems to be forgotten.  When I played it was always just "E" for start, prop at full RPM, firewall the throttle, and forget about it until you needed to slow down.  Also I seem to recall that the water injection on some planes seemed to have unlimited water.

[SFRT - Frenchy]

Restarting is basically the opposite mags on, then bring the mixture up, since the prop is windmilling the engine (assuming you're not in feather) you do not even need engage the starter, and the engine driven fuel pump will still be turning as well.  Although if the engine has been off long enough to cold soak, (more then a few minutes at altitude) you may need primer and boost before bringing the mixture up to restart it as well.

I'll call good try but no. Not my experience with piston engines at all, maybe in the manual. At altitude 10,000ft + with the air density change good luck for a speedy restart. The flight manual of the P47 as summary as it is, doesn't even call for a restart attempt for engine failure hehehe. As I mentioned above, the 402 was a little S&^%$# between vapor lock and cold soak. It would restart right away with sputters if you'd switch tanks as it's starving for fuel (we had to run the tanks dry per company SOP, engine doesn't give you no warning, it just shuts down ).

As far as cold soak, when I would shut down my turbine in practice around 15K, the EGT would drop below 200 degrees within 30 seconds. In the metroliner, you would not hit the starter from a feather lazy windmill, you'd hit the unfeather pump and it would go again. The PC12 you hit the starter, I obviously never tried to shut it off in flight  .

[caldera]

Back when I still played AH frequently, one of my complaints was that the engine management was way over simplified.  People flying around at full military power constantly without killing/overheating engines, and crazy rapid throttle changes (always at full RPM) without occasionally blowing cylinders and backfiring is just not realistic.  Not to mention managing mixture, cowl flaps, oil cooler doors, etc... etc..

I mean HTC has gone to great trouble to recreate realistic flight modeling and damage modeling.  But realistic engine modeling seems to be forgotten.  When I played it was always just "E" for start, prop at full RPM, firewall the throttle, and forget about it until you needed to slow down.  Also I seem to recall that the water injection on some planes seemed to have unlimited water.

The reason is that AH is a combat sim, not a flight sim.  People want fast action, not ten minute warmups and checklists on the runway.
Engine management might be OK for FSO but would be a drag in the MA.

[kvuo75]

i'm actually curious now, because in my admittedly brief experience with the flat 4's in frickin c172's, you pull the mixture to shut the mofo off.  and if it's still windmilling, you can just push the mixture back to restart it.  if the mags are still on of course.

[saggs]

I'll call good try but no. Not my experience with piston engines at all, maybe in the manual. At altitude 10,000ft + with the air density change good luck for a speedy restart. The flight manual of the P47 as summary as it is, doesn't even call for a restart attempt for engine failure hehehe. As I mentioned above, the 402 was a little S&^%$# between vapor lock and cold soak. It would restart right away with sputters if you'd switch tanks as it's starving for fuel (we had to run the tanks dry per company SOP, engine doesn't give you no warning, it just shuts down ).

As far as cold soak, when I would shut down my turbine in practice around 15K, the EGT would drop below 200 degrees within 30 seconds. In the metroliner, you would not hit the starter from a feather lazy windmill, you'd hit the unfeather pump and it would go again. The PC12 you hit the starter, I obviously never tried to shut it off in flight  .

OK... 

The P-47 manual is correct, if the engine has had a catastrophic failure all trying to restart it will do is cause more damage.  But an engine that has not failed can be restarted.

I work for a company who flies dozens of R2800s everyday we have precautionary in flight shutdowns happen all the time.  Usually they aren't restarted in flight, but sometimes they are (if they decide later they really need that engine even if they kill it, to climb over weather, or because another one started running even worse etc.)  Also every FE has to do an in flight shutdown AND restart on their check ride.

Trust me, big radials can be restarted in flight, and it's not that big of deal.  I don't have our procedure memorized (I'm a mechanic not an FE) but I know it calls for spinning it with the starter while still in feather to check for hydrolock, then using the feather pump and governor to get it spinning at the right RPM (I wanna say 1200, about where the governor comes in) boost pump on low, cowl flaps closed, maybe a little boost, and some primer if it's really cold, and she'll come to life.

Of course doing that on a cold engine is rather harsh on it, but if you're restarting a cold engine in flight that means you've got bigger problems.

[saggs]

i'm actually curious now, because in my admittedly brief experience with the flat 4's in frickin c172's, you pull the mixture to shut the mofo off.  and if it's still windmilling, you can just push the mixture back to restart it.  if the mags are still on of course.

Correct. Assuming nothing is broken in with the powerplant.  If the prop is spinning then so are the mags, and the fuel pump.

[saggs]

The reason is that AH is a combat sim, not a flight sim.  People want fast action, not ten minute warmups and checklists on the runway.
Engine management might be OK for FSO but would be a drag in the MA.

I wouldn't want to see warm up time and start checklists and all that.  I think even having auto cowl flaps and oil cooler doors and supercharger/blower controls and mixture is fine too. (Maybe make them check-able options like the stall limiter and combat trim)

The change I would like to see is making it so you can't just fly around at full throttle, full RPM all the time with no consequences.  It seems to me (compared to flight and damage modeling)  that it would be a simple thing to program the data for various aircraft about how long (assuming standard day) they could operate at full power, or METO, or WEP or with water injection before damaging engines.

The whole deal of running a corsair at full throttle and full RPM, for 45 minutes straight at MSL, and still having all temps and pressures in the green just ruins the immersion factor for me.   

[SFRT - Frenchy]

OK... 

The P-47 manual is correct, if the engine has had a catastrophic failure all trying to restart it will do is cause more damage.  But an engine that has not failed can be restarted.

I work for a company who flies dozens of R2800s everyday we have precautionary in flight shutdowns happen all the time.  Usually they aren't restarted in flight, but sometimes they are (if they decide later they really need that engine even if they kill it, to climb over weather, or because another one started running even worse etc.)  Also every FE has to do an in flight shutdown AND restart on their check ride.

Trust me, big radials can be restarted in flight, and it's not that big of deal.  I don't have our procedure memorized (I'm a mechanic not an FE) but I know it calls for spinning it with the starter while still in feather to check for hydrolock, then using the feather pump and governor to get it spinning at the right RPM (I wanna say 1200, about where the governor comes in) boost pump on low, cowl flaps closed, maybe a little boost, and some primer if it's really cold, and she'll come to life.

Of course doing that on a cold engine is rather harsh on it, but if you're restarting a cold engine in flight that means you've got bigger problems.

I'll go with that, engines do restart in flight. I'm debating the time it takes. I'd bet after a long shut down it's not 'engage ... poof ... there it is within 10 secs'. Definitely not AH style where you are stall backward at the top of an hammerhead  BTW if you want to relocate Elko or Boise we are hiring mechs (PC12, Augusta 109/119) 

[bustr]

Back when I still played AH frequently, one of my complaints was that the engine management was way over simplified.  People flying around at full military power constantly without killing/overheating engines, and crazy rapid throttle changes (always at full RPM) without occasionally blowing cylinders and backfiring is just not realistic.  Not to mention managing mixture, cowl flaps, oil cooler doors, etc... etc..

I mean HTC has gone to great trouble to recreate realistic flight modeling and damage modeling.  But realistic engine modeling seems to be forgotten.  When I played it was always just "E" for start, prop at full RPM, firewall the throttle, and forget about it until you needed to slow down.  Also I seem to recall that the water injection on some planes seemed to have unlimited water.

Ok, is this grounds for Hitech setting up the "Don't Move Your Controls Rapidly" function to the throttle? Then everyone will use the keyboard and stay away from using the analog throttle.

P47's have about 7 minutes of water and the NAVY radials a tad longer. And someone used to chime in about a spitfire pilot who pushed the throttle through the gate over the continent and forgot to pull it back until he was back over England. And the German Dalmer and BMW engines could run seemingly on over boost as long as there was liquid to inject.

Who knows, the WW1 arena was mentioned as a test arena for certain things. The radial engines could be killed by over revving them in dives on full throttle. I think I even killed the D7 engine like that once. Maybe something more will happen coming with AH3. How many years of wishes and complaints does Hitech have stashed away?

[GhostCDB]

Re-writing aerodynamics and flight manual scripts using this thread.

[XxDaSTaRxx]

Because people are dumb, it's just like when tards drop thir gears in the middle of a dog fight. That always cracks me up..

I hate to tell you but gear being down increases drag which slows down the aircraft. Somebody needs to reteach you basic aerodynamics. 

[JunkyII]

You quoted a reply from 2008...he was kind of right, dropping gear in a fight is dumb, increases drag but you lose maneuverability.