Jug armor

[Pannono]

I feel that the Jug is fragile in this game, and I am most likely not alone. For example, last night, a P-51D shot my wing off with just a few shots from D600 when I was in a P-47D-11. I had been untouched previously. I'm asking for an increase in armor, something to the B-25C's standard.

[angelsandair]

I feel that the Jug is fragile in this game, and I am most likely not alone. For example, last night, a P-51D shot my wing off with just a few shots from D600 when I was in a P-47D-11. I had been untouched previously. I'm asking for an increase in armor, something to the B-25C's standard.

Is.... that.....good?

[Rebel]

I'd be interested in the P-51's take on it- how fast he was going, how close he was on his FE, what his convergence was.

If he was in a high speed pass, stable, and put a 1/2 a sec to a full second burst into your wing....I could see what you describe as happening. 

do you have film of this? 

When I fly the D-11, it seems to absorb a lot of punishment.

[BnZ]

 Structurally, not so much fragile, but random, as Widewing has pointed out.

There are, however 3, areas of fragility with both Jugs and Hogs that I consider unacountable.

1. The P&W R2800, an engine known for the ability to absorb massive punishement and continue to turn, seems to go dead from machine-gun fire more than any other engine in the game, including the in-lines like the Merlin. (Same thing could be said for the BMW radials.)

2. In both planes, the pilot was heavily defended with cockpit armor. Yet in both planes seem to get more than their fair share of pilot wounds, especially the Hog. Hog pilots have to deal with a PLATE blocking their rearward vision, yet still get PWed more often? Baloney. Since this armor is part of what made the real aircraft heavier and actually incurs something of a visibility penalty in both aircraft, pilots should get some benefit from that iron they are lugging around.

3. Planes equipped with self-sealing fuel tanks should be very difficult to set on fire, but aren't. Especially the Jug. I've set both planes on fire with brief snapshots from .50s. Ridiculous. Once again, since the self-sealing tanks are part of the weight penalty for the aircraft, pilots of them should reap some benefit.

All in all, it seems to me that the Jugs and Hogs, planes know for their ruggedness, currently do not enjoy much advantage in toughness over say, the P-51D, a plane known for being less bullet-proof than its radial-powered stablemates.

[Yenny]

5-10 20mm rounds will take its wing off=)

[Pannono]

Structurally, not so much fragile, but random, as Widewing has pointed out.

There are, however 3, areas of fragility with both Jugs and Hogs that I consider unacountable.

1. The P&W R2800, an engine known for the ability to absorb massive punishement and continue to turn, seems to go dead from machine-gun fire more than any other engine in the game, including the in-lines like the Merlin. (Same thing could be said for the BMW radials.)

2. In both planes, the pilot was heavily defended with cockpit armor. Yet in both planes seem to get more than their fair share of pilot wounds, especially the Hog. Hog pilots have to deal with a PLATE blocking their rearward vision, yet still get PWed more often? Baloney. Since this armor is part of what made the real aircraft heavier and actually incurs something of a visibility penalty in both aircraft, pilots should get some benefit from that iron they are lugging around.

3. Planes equipped with self-sealing fuel tanks should be very difficult to set on fire, but aren't. Especially the Jug. I've set both planes on fire with brief snapshots from .50s. Ridiculous. Once again, since the self-sealing tanks are part of the weight penalty for the aircraft, pilots of them should reap some benefit.

All in all, it seems to me that the Jugs and Hogs, planes know for their ruggedness, currently do not enjoy much advantage in toughness over say, the P-51D, a plane known for being less bullet-proof than its radial-powered stablemates.

exactly what im trying to say BnZ. Thanks! 

[angelsandair]

5-10 20mm rounds will take its wing off=)

I've flown a 190Dora and hit a P-47D40. At one point, I loaded about 40 cannon rounds from 400 out and only gave him a fuel leak from what I could see. But next hit against him (about 5 cannons) took his wing off though.

[Yossarian]

Second these ideas. 

<S>

Yossarian

[Pannono]

IIRC, lots of jugs flew home missing a cylinder/cylinders. The R-2800 in this game is just another POS engine with nothing strong about it.
Also, as BnZ stated, most of the weight in a jug is the armor and self sealing fuel tanks. I dont feel that we are rewarded with what we fly the jug for: survivability.

[SlapShot]

IIRC, lots of jugs flew home missing a cylinder/cylinders. The R-2800 in this game is just another POS engine with nothing strong about it.
Also, as BnZ stated, most of the weight in a jug is the armor and self sealing fuel tanks. I dont feel that we are rewarded with what we fly the jug for: survivability.

I understand what you are asking for, but in your initial post, you only make reference to your wing being shot off.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think that the JUG had any armor in it's wings and 6 .50 cals, at convergence, on a P-51, will slice just about any wing off. So, asking for more armor will not fix your wings being sliced off.

[NoBaddy]

IIRC, lots of jugs flew home missing a cylinder/cylinders. The R-2800 in this game is just another POS engine with nothing strong about it.

Strange. I have had numerous engine (oil) hits and, without fail, the Jug lasts longer than most other planes.

[Rebel]

I understand what you are asking for, but in your initial post, you only make reference to your wing being shot off.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think that the JUG had any armor in it's wings and 6 .50 cals, at convergence, on a P-51, will slice just about any wing off. So, asking for more armor will not fix your wings being sliced off.

While Armor wasn't present, it was a very, very strong structure.  Guys rant into telephone poles and brought back pieces with 'em.  

Engine and Pilot armor however really do need to be looked at, as well as self sealing tanks.

But, as the game is, you're right- he talked about a P51 takin his wing off.  

Kinda brings up the whole "new damage model" argument.  We've been forever playing with ailerons, wings, elevators all popping off and not really trying to recreate damage as it happened.  

Some argument could be made for "gameplay consilation", but I think gameplay could be vastly improved.

Rather  then have the items "pop off", could we possible have them "damaged" to the point of not working?  

Wings would still pop off if catastrophic damage occured, though.  

What I'm imaganing is, here's Pannono in his Jug, he gets bounced by a P-51.  The P-51 gets a very good shot at convergence at the wingroot- which buckles under the pressure and rips free.  

Alternatively, the P-51 fires outside of convergence, and peppers the entire wing with just a series of pings, however  10 bullets find their way into the flap.  

When the pilot next lowers that flap, the flap doesn't work and you get the same effect as in game currently.

What I'm thinking of is planes belching smoke and fluid, and losing control rather then planes losing entire parts of their superstructure.  

Also, if you kill the pilot, why not keep the plane around rather then having it just "pop"?  Why not let it fall to ground?  

[NoBaddy]

Kinda brings up the whole "new damage model" argument.  We've been forever playing with ailerons, wings, elevators all popping off and not really trying to recreate damage as it happened. 

Some argument could be made for "gameplay consilation", but I think gameplay could be vastly improved.

Rather  then have the items "pop off", could we possible have them "damaged" to the point of not working?   

Wings would still pop off if catastrophic damage occured, though. 

What I'm imaganing is, here's Pannono in his Jug, he gets bounced by a P-51.  The P-51 gets a very good shot at convergence at the wingroot- which buckles under the pressure and rips free. 

Alternatively, the P-51 fires outside of convergence, and peppers the entire wing with just a series of pings, however  10 bullets find their way into the flap. 

When the pilot next lowers that flap, the flap doesn't work and you get the same effect as in game currently.

What I'm thinking of is planes belching smoke and fluid, and losing control rather then planes losing entire parts of their superstructure.   

I really don't understand what you are asking for. The above is already in the game. Flaps can be damaged and not "pop off", in addition, they can also be shot off. What Pannono was asking for is a Jug that equates to the legendary status the P47 has. In my opinion, the P47 we have is plenty tough. Like any other plane, catch enough bullets in the right spot....and your virtual day gets ruined.

[SlapShot]

Of all the things in the "damage" list, if you take hits to your flaps, while they are out, they will remain "broken".

Also, if you kill the pilot, why not keep the plane around rather then having it just "pop"?  Why not let it fall to ground?

I would think it's done that way to get rid of that object as soon as possible. The server must keep track of all "objects" withing a certain radius, to you (and everyone else), so multiply that by how many are in the arena ... it could be a rather daunting task, so as soon as the pilot is dead ... why keep the object around ?

[Rebel]

I really don't understand what you are asking for. The above is already in the game. Flaps can be damaged and not "pop off", in addition, they can also be shot off. What Pannono was asking for is a Jug that equates to the legendary status the P47 has. In my opinion, the P47 we have is plenty tough. Like any other plane, catch enough bullets in the right spot....and your virtual day gets ruined.

Mmkay- I goofed that up.  I'll try here in a minute.

Yeah, the Jug we have in game here is good n' tough relative to other planes in the set.  I do think it's a bit pilot wound happy sometimes, though.  That could be bad luck, too.

What I was "asking for" was a damage model where you as the attacker wouldn't see his entire tail section shred to oblivion, his flaps and ailerons pop off in some cartoonish manner.