For you law enforcement supporters

[BBBB]

 Teachers do not make enough for the amount of BS they have to deal with. My wife is a high school English and reading teacher. The problem for the most part is not the teachers, it is the schools, admins, students and parents. Because the teachers are on the front lines they catch all the negativity.

 My wife is an outstanding teacher. I am often awed by her dedication to her job and her kids. When she is not teaching she is going to school to get new certifications, working on her masters and this summer doing a nation wide writing project, which is going to give her new/better avenues of approach when it comes to to her lesson planing and teaching.

 I normally look forward to her summers off we get to spend a lot of time together. However this year she has been in school working on her masters, getting new certifications, learning Spanish, getting the ESOL certifications to go with it and next month she is going to Mexico to see how classrooms are taught down there so she can better relate to her new, non-English speaking students that are flooding the schools here from Mexico.

 She puts all this time and effort into her work and she makes just over 40K a year. On top of that it is dangerous. They just shut down the alternative school here, so there is no where to send the violent and problem children. On top of that they have to earn a certain number of "credits" in order to be expelled.

 Last year in my wife's school there was a stabbing, a shooting in front of the school, three kids were caught with guns on different occasions, kids set the wooded area behind the school on fire as a prank and several teachers cars were vandalized on the first day of school. On top of all of that, my wife had three students get up in her face, one student threaten to find out where she lived and kill her and another student pushed over her desk. Lucky for my wife she is a pretty popular teacher and the kids that got in her face to threaten her were stopped by some rather big guys from the football team. Meanwhile it took the campus police 10 mins to show up behind the admin that took five minutes. That's four minutes too long in my opinion.

 If you want to blame someone for the schools being the way they are, blame the parents. Because most of the parents my wife deals with start talking about lawsuits whenever their kid is accused of doing something wrong. This causes the admin to let the whole issue go and the cycle continues. The blame chain should be; parents, students, admins, teachers. Instead for whatever reason it goes the other way around. Go figure..

[vorticon]

It's a whole lot hotter on that roof than it is in the foundation pit. Those boys stripping forms in the foundation pit don't have to worry about falling and breaking their necks either.

all things equal, not by much, if at all. get any amount of breeze going then the roofers will feel it as well.

and your right, 8 - 14 inches of  room to walk on is more than enough for anyone to walk on, and unless we land wrong or catch a tie in the wrong spot on the way down, even if we do fall, we wont get too badly hurt.

[Pooh21]

See Rules #4, #5

[lazs2]

ah yes..  someone had to chime in with the saintly teacher post.   I always envision them on the cross or with hands clasped in prayer and an aura of light around them!

the are the highest part time workers on the planet.. they have our kids for most of their waking lives and yet they blame everyone else in the world for their continued and constant.. and getting worse... failure to teach.

I would be a little more sympathetic about it if I heard at least one teacher admit that they have a part in the failure to teach.

I would feel less bitter if I didn't see catholic school teachers doing a good job with a lot less.. in larger classrooms even.

If teachers feel that they are not making enough money then leave.   If they feel that they are not really part time workers.. if they feel that they "really work far more hours than show"  then...prove it.

I see em leave the school long before I leave work.   I see em getting there far latter.. I see em getting every holiday under the sun off.. I see em getting breaks all day long.

I see only one in 900 ever being fired for being incompetent... hey!  maybe they are saints after all!!

Now.. if they can't get their work done under those conditions then I would say first..  work a full 8 hour day with half hour for lunch and two 15 minute breaks and 11 holidays or less a year and 2 weeks vacation.

If they still can't get the days work done then stay over ... at the school..  and do the work and get paid overtime..  Those who can never get their work done get fired.

lazs

[SteveBailey]

ah yes..  someone had to chime in with the saintly teacher post.   I always envision them on the cross or with hands clasped in prayer and an aura of light around them!

You didn't comprehend my post. I'm saying the teaching position is underpaid. There are plenty of bad teachers out there and they keep their jobs because teachers are hard to come by.  As I said, imagine the kind of high quality people we would attract if the position was higher paying.  This too hard for you to grasp?

[REP0MAN]

Sorry guys, I didn't read all 5 pages but wanted to chime in. I'm sure Rich, Mav and other LEO's have chimed in but I'll add as this hits very much at home for me.

I work a full time job for a major cable ISP Wednesday through Saturday. Sunday night and Monday night I work for a small town police department. I make close to 20 bucks an hour at my full time job with great bene's. The police department I work for pays me 10 bucks an hour as a part time employee. No insurance, no life insurance and no pension (part time). I am looking to get back in LE full time (was full time for almost 6 years from 1996-2001) while I'm still young (32). I have been applying to Oklahoma SO's and PD's. Right now, I am waiting anxiously to hear from an Indian Nation Tribal PD. I have a good feeling about this one. Anyway, I curiously asked my current chief if I decided to go back to full time with this current agency, if he' hire me. He said, "In a heartbeat". Pay starts at $1700 bucks a month and increases to 2k after 120 days, then to $2200 after 1 year. Medical coverage is free to employee and family after 90 days and access to the Oklahoma Police Officers Pension after 20 years. No 401k or other incentives. Uniforms are modestly supplied. Any extras I would have to purchase.

I never made more than $1500 bucks a month in my prior 6 years in Oklahoma Law Enforcement.

Something needs to be done. Small towns get the crap that the big cities turn away. Rural LE is sub-par IMO because they take what they can get and hope they stick around longer than the 1 year you must stay after the agency gets you certified. People suffer, good cops suffer and the entire thread of society suffers IMO. Here in Oklahoma, most of the medium to large city agencies require either an Associates or Bachelors degree. This is also a very bad thing but a topic for another thread. The big city's get most of the good cops because the smaller rural area agencies cannot afford them.

It sad.

*Disclaimer* I am NOT calling all rural cops bad or second rate. I work with and have worked with some very fine rural officers. I am pointing that broad brush mostly at leadership and some bad seeds I have come across in my time.

[Rich46yo]

Actually Repo the guys who actually are the Police, you, me, Mav, the others, havnt said much of anything in this thread. The only point I made was that higher salaries usually point to a higher cost of living locally and doesnt mean more spending power.

Other then that this has become just another Police thread for Lazs to twist with his Love,Hate thing he has for LawEnforcement.

Internet Policeaholicism is an obsessive/compulsive disorder Laz. Did you know that?


BTW stupid I reported you for that.

I had a leak in my roof once, I called the roofer and withen a very short time he came out and fixed the problem.

I had a maniac with a desert eagle running loose around my apartment complex and the pigs never showed.

Always have a 12ga. and a bucket handy

S!  to roofers

[Pooh21]

oh lordy, thin skin much?


Bad cop no donut

[FrodeMk3]

As per the original issue of Rural vs. Urban salaries, I'd like to point out this; You can really see the difference with PD departments, because I believe that just about every City and town in the U.S. has one. And, we also have county, state, and Federal Law enforcement, but since we haven't gone into those areas yet, so Municipal PD's it is...You see a big difference in salaries' mainly because, well, you have a massive cost of living difference between those areas, as well as a factor for more 'severe' duty. (Think the difference between South-central L.A. and a 2,000-4,000 population town in Iowa, for example.) In L.A., for instance, Rent's there can start at 1500$ a month for a one-bedroom apartment, for example, and what does that get you in Iowa? A dollar goes' farther in rural areas, and it has for a long time.

Hey, the salary difference goes across just about all occupations. Union scale wage for most of the people in my trade (Construction equipment operation) is close to 37$ an hour. But, you go to other states', like Washington, Colorado, Arizona, etc. It drops' to about 17-20$. And it does that for a lot of trades. You might make more in the big city, but you're gonna have to spend more, as well.

[REP0MAN]

I agree with you Frode and it's true that a dollar, especially spent on rent/mortgage will go further in a small town as opposed to a larger city. I would like to take issue with your other point though because I believe it is a frame of mind that many people have a misconception about.

When I work, I am alone in the city. I patrol a town of about 2500 by myself. My closest backup is, at best, 15-20 minutes away. Believe me, I've called them and it seems like a heck of alot more. There is absolutely no difference in the clientèle that I deal with as opposed to a big city cop. Just the volume and amount of backup I go in with. I would argue that rural law enforcement, especially that of rural Sheriff's Departments, is much more dangerous than it's urban counterpart.

Rural policing is different than urban policing in many aspects too. While a city cop has a large jurisdictional area to contain, it also allows them to be more proactive due to abundance of support. I have very little time to ascertain, say, your driving state (intoxication) as you can quickly get through my city. Where as an urban city cop has much more distance in his jurisdiction to make this judgment call. Thats why I will be a little less lenient on certain probable causes than a big city cop would be. When I am on shift, everyone who cares, knows exactly where I am in town.

Another example; I get a 911 call from the communications center (operated by the county SO in the neighboring city (county seat)) of a domestic disturbance in progress. Not one call, but several from concerned neighbors. My response time is minimal. I arrive, find wife and two kids outside crying. She tells me that "He is inside tearing the place apart". He has kicked the front door in. She says he threw her across the room but her and the kids got out unharmed. She thinks there may be a gun inside. Oh yeah, there is also a baby in the crib that she was unable to get to. What are my options? I could (a) go in, hoping to God that he has not armed himself and is bent now on hurting whomever comes through the door. I could (b) stay outside and call for what backup I could get resulting in a long standoff situation ensuing or setting myself up for ambush while waiting.

In this situation, I entered, weapon drawn and made contact with the subject in a back bedroom. He had a pistol. He was distraught, crying. At gunpoint I called for backup and spoke to the subject in an understanding tone. Once the subject found out I was not there to harm him but, rather, to help him, he put the gun away and came out peacefully. I was lucky. Things don't usually go that well.

Bottom line is this. Don't let the size of the city fool you. Crime, or the malcontent of our society, is everywhere. There are always people who despise authority. There will forever be bad guys to fight the good guys. The size, financial status or stature will never be an accurate identifier of danger.

[ink]

ill add a little bit to this one

there are good and bad in all, i have met some cool cops, (trust me when i say i have probably been arrested more than any one on these boards), but what sux is when you have a bad cop/correction officer,  its about the worst, because they are in a position of power. they think they are better then "civs." and have no compunction about taking out someone.
   when you have a bad roofer you might get a little water on your head while you sleep.

[Obie303]

Rich, ignore the guy.  He probably got a speeding ticket and is mad.

Very interesting topic.  This reminds me of the "discussions" my sister and I have when we see each other.  She's a teacher and I'm a LEO.  She gets the summer, holidays, and weekends off.  I just ended up working 31 hours of OT to cover for a sergeant who's kid is in the hospital with leukemia and for a couple of people on vacation.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining.  I love my job and take the good with the bad.

Repoman, you were very lucky.  When I started out, help was always 20 minutes away.  But it was the best training I ever had.  It taught me self-reliance.  After 2 years of that, I got into a great town with better pay and working with others.  I know some cops that look down on the local part-timers because they don't have the same training in some cases.  I give all of the small town cops all the credit in the world!  Tough job and until you've been in their shoes, a person will always have a difficult time understanding the job. 

just my .02 cents.

[REP0MAN]

Repoman, you were very lucky.  When I started out, help was always 20 minutes away.  But it was the best training I ever had.  It taught me self-reliance.  After 2 years of that, I got into a great town with better pay and working with others.  I know some cops that look down on the local part-timers because they don't have the same training in some cases.  I give all of the small town cops all the credit in the world!  Tough job and until you've been in their shoes, a person will always have a difficult time understanding the job. 

just my .02 cents.

Yes Obie, very lucky. Especially if you'd a seen his priors. I have the gift of gab and the insatiable talent of knowing when to use it. It's gotten me out of a jam more than once my brother, more....than....once

I think it is funny when full time officers puff their chest because they 'think' they have more training than I. I'm not in this to 'one up' anyone so I let bygones be bygones.

ink, bud, I feel for ya. There are many cops, and especially detention/correction officers, that like to make their status known. I've stopped off duty guys before. And, I'm a lenient guy most of the time. The ones who immediately flash a badge are the ones that usually get a lecture from me. If you mention it while we discuss a few things AFTER I get your license and insurance, thats another thing, especially if you're packin.

All in all, there are all kinds on our side just as their are all kinds in your professions. I will most likely become a PIO somewhere cause I like to educate and talk. Some just want to be left alone with their strawberry filled crawler. To each his own.

[Pooh21]

Rich, ignore the guy.  He probably got a speeding ticket and is mad.

nope no tickets here 

[Slash27]

I just pointed out that fire and police using the danger of their jobs as the sole reason for more and more money is pretty silly  in light of the fact that they don't have a particularly dangerous job compared to the most dangerous and that they get paid more than most of the people who have even more dangerous jobs.

How much should they be paid?   how much do we need em?   if they eat up 50% of the entire cities budget.. you might say that they are getting paid too much... that is not the case tho in some areas.. in some areas they are eating up 70-80% of every penny the city takes into the general fund.

How much would be enough?   90%?  100%?

lazs

You are talking to the wrong cops and firefighters, or you thats the only part you choose to hear.