Author Topic: General teamwork/wingman information  (Read 878 times)

Offline MjTalon

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General teamwork/wingman information
« on: July 01, 2008, 05:45:12 AM »
Since i love to fly tactically every chance i get here is just some information that I would like to get some more attention on because now a days I've noticed when flying with a wingman the lead and wingman tend to get their respective roles mixed up so I'll show some light on this subject so everyone can get on the right track.  :aok

.:The Leader:.

The Leader’s primary responsibility is navigation, prioritization of targets, selection of tactics, and shooting down the enemy. His secondary responsibilities are communications with larger formations and the ground controllers, and protecting the wingman. He must communicate with his wingman through flight cues, voice, and in the simulation world, text.

.:The Wingman:.

The Wingman’s primary responsibility is protecting the Leader by spotting the enemy, and keeping the enemy off of the Leader’s tail. His secondary responsibilities are navigation, communications, and engaging the enemy. He must communicate with his Leader through flight cues, voice, and, once again, text.

The Wingman typically flies in relatively close formation with the Leader either inline or, most often, obliquely to the rear at almost the same altitude.

In WWII, roles were established on the ground and held fast throughout combat, with the more experienced pilot being Leader and the junior pilot being Wingman.

There were exceptions to the rule, of course. When Bud Anderson and Chuck Yeager flew together they exchanged roles fluidly as the situation dictated, for example. But both were expert fighter pilots that understood doctrine and tactics and were comfortable with both Lead and Wingman roles.

If either the Leader or the Wingman experienced mechanical difficulty or was damage in combat, both would return to base together whenever possible. A lone, damaged fighter is easy pickings, and the guy behind the stick was more than an online alias with a refly button.

.:Responsibilities:.



Navigation-  While the Leader is the one responsible for navigation (as the Wingman must follow him, even if in the wrong direction), if one is separated it is useful to know where one is at and the direction of either the target or the airfield. If you’re the Wingman and the Leader is going the wrong way, tell him.

Situational Awareness-  The Leader is responsible primarily for the front, sides, and above the pair, while the Wingman is responsible for the sides, the rear, above and below. Both should check each other’s position constantly as well. “Primarily” doesn’t mean that the Leader doesn’t "check six" or the Wingman doesn’t scan above and to the front; it just means that each will spend a little more time scanning their zones. The Leader is looking for something to kill; the Wingman is looking for who’s trying to kill them




.:Positioning:.

“Loosey Deucy” - The most common and effective pairing is the Wingman slightly lower and to the right or left of the Leader with about fifty to one hundred meters distance. If the pair is too close together, they represent a single target to an unseen attacker! The Wingman is lower in order to see the Leader and keep formation.

Line Abreast-  Side-by-side, with both splitting the sphere of scanning the skies for enemies.

Line Astern - Ducks in a row. Usually caused by the Leader outrunning the Wingman, it’s also the most common formation when attacking ground targets.

Overwatch - The Wingman is high and to the side of the Leader, with two to three hundred meters separation. The Wingman must be far enough left or right to easily see and keep with the Leader. It’s a good technique if the Leader has just finished a successful attack and is attempting to regain energy
« Last Edit: July 01, 2008, 05:51:58 AM by MjTalon »

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Offline Bruv119

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Re: General teamwork/wingman information
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2008, 07:27:26 AM »
some very good text book guidelines.

For me a decent wingman is someone who naturally thinks and knows exactly what his wingman is going to do, before he does it and is in the right place and the right time to pick up the pieces.  Unfortunately this isnt something that can be learnt overnight and it takes alot of sticktime flying together.

Im lucky enough to have flown with some great sticks over my years flying online and there are one or two where voice communication just wasnt needed.  Both on the same page,  killing in an orchestrated, ruthless fashion.

Roping an enemy con perfectly for a squaddie to come in and take him to pieces still gives me a wry smile.
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Offline MjTalon

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Re: General teamwork/wingman information
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2008, 07:32:36 AM »
Bruv my good sir, you don't have no idea how much i miss flying  :mad:! I've learned so much knowledge on my 6 month detour from the game while I'm stationed at Fort Gordon, GA about wingman tactics I'm going crazy not being able to implicate them!


Once I'm able to return I've got alot of training to do towards my squadron as a whole since I'm the XO. But as you've stated, it cannot be learned overnight and it takes alot of sticktime with a certain individual or constant training with your squadron to be able to have that level of Discipline, Communication, and Teamwork.

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Offline Bruv119

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Re: General teamwork/wingman information
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2008, 07:39:09 AM »
Those 3 bold words sum up wingman flying in a nutshell.

There are great indivadual pilots who make rubbish wingman because they lose discipline (kza).  When your flying 3 or 4 together you need to have good clear calls as to who is on what and then have the necessary skills to make that kill quick.

When we get our A game on the kills come easy, almost untouchable.
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Offline MjTalon

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Re: General teamwork/wingman information
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2008, 07:59:54 AM »
While were beating  on the same drum bruv, let me explain what i mean by discipline.

The reason i see discipline being a key factor in a good wingman is simple. Learning self control to not chase low or "easy" cons when the lead has given you direct orders to maintain formation. Also since majority of the players  would rather go for the easy kill than to protect your country/wing/squadmate it's difficult for alot of pilots not to get suckered into getting low and slow, then expecting the lead to bail them out which is not always the case.

My point I'm trying to make is this; if you have a wingman that has outstanding discipline and does not worry about getting and landing kills then you've accomplished something great.

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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: General teamwork/wingman information
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2008, 08:22:13 AM »
good stuff :aok couple of comments:

what you're describing is Double Attack winging, with pretty rigid roles for the leader and wing which can be swapped when the leader calls it. Loose Deuce is a variation of this where the roles are less rigid - either pilot can engage if the opportunity is there, its not a formation.

Shaw suggests combat spread spacing for either method should be 1-2 turn radii (200-400yds) which makes sense as you are already set up for bracket attacks and the like and visibilty across your wingmans 6 is much improved. Formations 1 and 3 sound more designed for Fighting Wing tactics (small separation, the pair effectively flies as one fighter) which are generally considered less effective than Double Attack or Loose Deuce.

:)
« Last Edit: July 01, 2008, 08:23:50 AM by RTHolmes »
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Offline MjTalon

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Re: General teamwork/wingman information
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2008, 08:31:06 AM »
good stuff :aok couple of comments:

what you're describing is Double Attack winging, with pretty rigid roles for the leader and wing which can be swapped when the leader calls it. Loose Deuce is a variation of this where the roles are less rigid - either pilot can engage if the opportunity is there, its not a formation.

Shaw suggests combat spread spacing for either method should be 1-2 turn radii (200-400yds) which makes sense as you are already set up for bracket attacks and the like and visibilty across your wingmans 6 is much improved. Formations 1 and 3 sound more designed for Fighting Wing tactics (small separation, the pair effectively flies as one fighter) which are generally considered less effective than Double Attack or Loose Deuce.

:)


I'll grab a picture for you holmes :)

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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: General teamwork/wingman information
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2008, 09:03:22 AM »
you'd never guess i've been reading Robert Shaw would you ;) 

like Bruv touched on the cooperation between the pair determines the tactics - Fighting Wing (almost follow-the-leader) is easiest for novices and pairs who haven't winged before, Double Attack requires more cooperation and communication and Loose Deuce requires even more cooperation. I see this when eg. Bat and Redtop wing - theres almost no radio comms, they just know exactly what each other is doing and what their next move will be. I guess the difference between Double Attack and Loose Deuce is the degree of "sixth sense" between the wingmen which comes with practice.

btw Bruv, your guys use wing tactics very effectively, as I've found to my cost many times <S>
« Last Edit: July 01, 2008, 09:05:41 AM by RTHolmes »
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: General teamwork/wingman information
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2008, 09:48:38 AM »
When I wing it, and I prefer to be the wingman, I stay high and over my wingmate watching his back, calling out cons, and directing him which way to turn to give myself the best deflection shot on the con. This is during action when my wingmate invariably descends for his attack. There are exceptions but I never saw the sense of staying wing to wing with a mate during his attack. Keeping some distance with stored E seems to make the most sense.

But...I take being a wingman seriously. I watch my mates back and thats the end of it, and other no circumstances chase other cons no matter how easy they are.

Generally I think you have to be someone that likes teamwork and history to fly a good wing in AH. Really those types are more an exception then a rule. One of the things I love about formation flying bombers is watching the discipline and teamwork of the escorts.

I know its just a silly computer game but it is based on an actual conflict that really happened.
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Offline VonMessa

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Re: General teamwork/wingman information
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2008, 09:57:21 AM »
No mention of the schwarm here, Talon?     :cry   Not even from a 109 pilot?   :cry      :cry


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Offline MjTalon

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Re: General teamwork/wingman information
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2008, 10:05:11 AM »
don't hold me to it von  :o. i was getting to it  :pray!

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Offline VonMessa

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Re: General teamwork/wingman information
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2008, 10:28:17 AM »
don't hold me to it von  :o. i was getting to it  :pray!

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Offline Bruv119

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Re: General teamwork/wingman information
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2008, 10:34:43 AM »

btw Bruv, your guys use wing tactics very effectively, as I've found to my cost many times <S>

Thanks for the compliment Holmes.  I've always found wingman flying fun and I do try to install a sense of WTF am I going to do next into my guys.  Flying along next to each other isnt the way you want to do it in the danger zone.  It needs to be quite fluid and instinctive.  If someone overshoots and goes up the wingman has to be in a position to kill, clear and reset.

Situational Awarenesss must be maintained by all and the flight leader needs to keep communication short and to the point.  

It is great when you develop an understanding with another player.  I hope that we keep improving our wingman skills to a point where everyone is near enough the same level.  With 5-6 excellent pilots you should be able (in theory) to clear a whole sector of enemy cons with double or more odds.
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Offline bizz

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Re: General teamwork/wingman information
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2008, 02:40:17 PM »
If you come up agianst two guys that really know how to work together they become very hard to shot down even with an advantage. IMO though very rigid wingman tactics just dont work in AH, loose goose works much better. I think it has something to do with that big neon sign above your A/C

When I wing with rebel we can almost read each others minds, we know exactly what the other is going to do without saying a word. We know exactly when the right time to seperate is and how long to stay apart before we lose our effectivness. If the situation gets really bad we know how to use our speed and SA to keep each others six clear while making our way back to a friendly base. Its all very fluid and hard to explain, but it is fun :aok
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Offline Ghosth

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Re: General teamwork/wingman information
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2008, 07:32:08 AM »
The better you know your wingman, the better you'll work together as a team.
A good pair can swap roles instantly effortlessly. Keep in constant contact, and point out incoming cons to each other.
"Knowing" what your wingman will do in almost any given situation makes it easy to judge what YOU need to do to support him.

Normally that only comes through prolonged experience flying together as a team.

The biggest single edge you can bring to a fight, is having a wingman with you that you trust.

But any wingman beats flying solo, 4 eyes are always better than 2.

If your new, try coming to the TA first. Warm up, keep your eyes open for someone else new who might also be looking
for someone.

If you die have the patience to wait for him to die, crash, land. Then roll together again.
Can be same plane, or 2 different planes. A fast plane and a good turning plane make a fearsome combo.
They can't run from you and they can't engage one without dieing to the other.

Don't be greedy! If you have a couple kills, help set your wingman up so he can get some.
After all its about teamwork.