Speaking of "What-If" scenarios....

[Saxman]

Since we're flying ONE "What-if" scenario right now:

"Our plan was to put six Marine squadrons on jeep carriers, and launch the F4Us from the North Sea to make a series of massive attacks on the Nazi targets.  After all the planning was done, the training was in progress, and the logistics were in order, I was sent to Washington...to brief the highest civilian and military authorities including General George C. Marshall. ....General Marshall listened, but on hearing that US Marine aviators would make the planned attacks....said something to the effect, 'That's the end of this briefing.  As long as I'm in charge of our armed forces, there will never be a Marine in Europe'. And there never was during World War II." -- Admiral Thomas Moore

In 1944, concern over the small size of the German V-1 launch sites and the effectiveness and accuracy of high-altitude level bomber strikes against them led to the development of Project Danny. Marine Air Group 51 was formed, consisting of VMFs-511, 512, 513 and 514, (later reinforced by a fifth existing squadron, VMO-351) and began training to attack these sites at low-altitude with precision strikes. The squadron especially favored the use of the "Tiny Tim" 11.75" air-launched rocket, which was judged by the pilots as the most effective weapon to do the job. Flying F4U-1D Corsairs, the Marines would operate from escort carriers in the North Sea and strike the V-1 launch sites, then return to their carriers again (a remarkable feat of flying ability, as the big Corsairs were difficult to handle even on the big fleet carriers).

MAG-51 was trained and ready to go when the plan was presented to General George C. Marshall. Marshall, famously, adamantly refused to allow Marines to operate in the European theater, so the project was scrapped. Ultimately other options just as effective were developed, and Project Danny became unnecessary.

Scenario

The scenario would address what might have happened had Project Danny proceeded. Five squadrons of F4U-1Ds would represent the five squadrons of MAG-51. Their targets are the V-1 sites along the continental coast of the English Channel (either BOB or North Sea would be suitable for this setup). Escort would be provided by USN F6Fs and FM-2s, or FAA Seafires. Additionally, the Allies must defend their carriers from German counter-attacks. F4Us may carry 8x5" HVARs, and 500lb bombs in place of the Tiny Tims (approximately equivalent in charge size). The Allied commander must have EXACTLY five squadrons assigned as F4Us, with a minimum size of 7-10 pilots (as assigned, this allows between 35-50 F4Us). He may use squadrons larger than 7-11 if he so wishes.

The German objectives would be the defense of the launch sites and the sinking of the American carriers.

Difficulties

The biggest difficulty in this setup is that, AFAIK, none of the maps HAVE V-1 launch sites. This would require a new or modification to an existing map, or substitution of some other target (Vehicle Field may work, as it's a more or less smaller target than an airfield. Vehicle Hangars could fill in for the block houses, and fuel bunkers would certainly be a valid target). The lack of Tiny Tim rockets should be easily made up for by using 500lb bombs, instead. We also don't have escort carriers, but with reduced AAA the standard carriers should be adequate.

[Spikes]

Would there be any opposition?

[Nefarious]

Would there be any opposition?

I would say so, depending on when it would take place I guess. The Luftwaffe was based in Norway and all over Germany.

[ghostdancer]

Interesting but remember for an FSO it needs to last 3 frames. Plus, we are running from about 480 to 500 now per event. So you would need to expand this what if to accomodate those numbers and then have enough objectives for 3 frames worth of action.

[Saxman]

Would there be any opposition?

The German objectives would be the defense of the launch sites and the sinking of the American carriers.

Yes.

ghostdancer,

True, but it's a start. It would be easier if there was a map that HAD about 30 or so little V1 sites scattered across the map to choose from, as I don't think there's enough V bases on Norway or BOB along the coast to effectively fill the roll for three different frames (maybe enough to hit each on the first frame, but not after that). Maybe whoever is working on BOB08 could be convinced to model a V-1 site to scatter across the map? *wink wink* *nudge nudge*

As for numbers, I was only looking at the number of F4Us as sort of a core to build the rest of the tour around, and 50-odd Hogs is more or less along the lines of the number of TBMs used in each frame of Guadalcanal. And while the primary Allied targets of Project Danny were the V-1 sites, that doesn't rule out they may have had the carriers strike other targets in support or to draw the Luftwaffe's attention away (ports, shipping, factories near the coast, radar sites, etc) with TBMs/etc. So while the raids on the V-1s by themselves would be adequate for a snapshot, secondary targets could be used to pad out each frame of the tour (F4Us on the "V-1s" each frame, with TBMs hitting some other target, etc) to make it more acceptable for FSO.

[Fencer51]

I stumbled across this "possibility" while looking for F4U ideas.  I thought about doing it for a Scenario, a FSO was my second thought.  It could be done on the North Sea map.  I had it on my penciled list of ones to do, but with 2 other scenarios designed and ready to run, a third about ready, and another one skirting around the edges (map needed) it had not been a high priority.

Let me know if I can be of any help Saxman.

[Delirium]

I like the idea alot, it would bring 2 planesets to the forefront that rarely ever face one another.

It is possible too without a massive re-write of history.

[Saxman]

Allied plane set:

F6F-5
FM-2
F4U-1D (5 squads only, each at least 7-10 pilots), can carry 8x5" HVAR and 2x 500lb bombs.
TBM-3 (32 Minimum)

Ideally five Allied CVs, all of which would be German strike objectives.

I'd need help with the Luftwaffe side of the plane set, though for certain Ju-88s (formations enabled, since they're sitting ducks for enemy fighters as it is) and Bf-110s for the German strike package.

The other question that I've already stated is how to handle the V-1 launch sites. Do you know off-hand if BOB or North Sea has enough vehicle fields near the coast to substitute? Or will this really require a map specifically designed with this setup in mind? I THINK that giving the Allies more offensive objectives can be gotten away with, considering the Germans would have multiple carriers to take out which are much more difficult to destroy if properly defended.

Man, I wish more than ever we had Tiny Tims. 

[Delirium]

I think if you bed Raptor enough, he'll make the V1 launchers/ramps for ya.

Since this type of scenario runs soley off the fight with and surrounding the V1s, I would be hesitant to throw this out there without an accurate representation.

[Nefarious]

The other question that I've already stated is how to handle the V-1 launch sites. Do you know off-hand if BOB or North Sea has enough vehicle fields near the coast to substitute?

The Norway Terrain has numerous bases in the Denmark, Northern Germany area.

[Saxman]

That really may be all that's needed for the V-1s then, along with a base to put it on, as there's enough other buildings (ammo bunkers, hangars, etc) to populate the site with. Of course there's still a matter of updating a map to include them.

A difficulty would be getting them to show up on the map, but one possibility would be to treat this like convoys or task groups: Assign each F4U squadron a sector, and their objective is to locate and strike any V-1 sites in their area of operations. This would create a situation where squadron commanders would have to plan their strikes carefully regarding how many ships to commit to each base. Additionally, a V-1 site is small enough that 10-12 F4Us would be a bit of overkill, considering the firepower the Hogs can bring to bear (even with rockets and only 500lb bombs) so this would give the squadron more targets to hit. If the V-1 sites are unmarked and small, this would also require the F4Us to approach from low-level so they can find them, which fits in with the parameters of the original Project Danny (the attacks were expected to be made from low altitude for use of the Tiny Tims).

However, this can ALSO be used to keep the Axis from knowing what type of opponents they're looking for, especially if all the V-1 sites are along the coast, and all the other targets set for the Allies are along the coast as well. Instead of telling an Axis squadron to "Defend this V-1 site from attack," or "Defend Port Whatever," the Axis is instead told to "Patrol sector x.x." If ALL the target sectors have both V-1 sites AND some other type of field (V-base, airfield or port) it would require the Axis commander to be prepared for anything when setting his defenses, rather than knowing with certainty how to position his CAP. This would in turn give the F4Us a better fighting chance if the Germans don't know for certain that the strike will be coming in from low altitude, as the commander may decide to run his CAP in a V-1 sector at 20,000ft to guard against high-alt jabo or level strikes by TBMs. Meanwhile the F4Us sneak in at 3000-5000 feet so they can locate the V-1 sites, and the Germans don't see them because they're patrolling at maximum alt.

[angelsandair]

Since we're flying ONE "What-if" scenario right now:

In 1944, concern over the small size of the German V-1 launch sites and the effectiveness and accuracy of high-altitude level bomber strikes against them led to the development of Project Danny. Marine Air Group 51 was formed, consisting of VMFs-511, 512, 513 and 514, (later reinforced by a fifth existing squadron, VMO-351) and began training to attack these sites at low-altitude with precision strikes. The squadron especially favored the use of the "Tiny Tim" 11.75" air-launched rocket, which was judged by the pilots as the most effective weapon to do the job. Flying F4U-1D Corsairs, the Marines would operate from escort carriers in the North Sea and strike the V-1 launch sites, then return to their carriers again (a remarkable feat of flying ability, as the big Corsairs were difficult to handle even on the big fleet carriers).

MAG-51 was trained and ready to go when the plan was presented to General George C. Marshall. Marshall, famously, adamantly refused to allow Marines to operate in the European theater, so the project was scrapped. Ultimately other options just as effective were developed, and Project Danny became unnecessary.

Scenario

The scenario would address what might have happened had Project Danny proceeded. Five squadrons of F4U-1Ds would represent the five squadrons of MAG-51. Their targets are the V-1 sites along the continental coast of the English Channel (either BOB or North Sea would be suitable for this setup). Escort would be provided by USN F6Fs and FM-2s, or FAA Seafires. Additionally, the Allies must defend their carriers from German counter-attacks. F4Us may carry 8x5" HVARs, and 500lb bombs in place of the Tiny Tims (approximately equivalent in charge size). The Allied commander must have EXACTLY five squadrons assigned as F4Us, with a minimum size of 7-10 pilots (as assigned, this allows between 35-50 F4Us). He may use squadrons larger than 7-11 if he so wishes.

The German objectives would be the defense of the launch sites and the sinking of the American carriers.

Difficulties

The biggest difficulty in this setup is that, AFAIK, none of the maps HAVE V-1 launch sites. This would require a new or modification to an existing map, or substitution of some other target (Vehicle Field may work, as it's a more or less smaller target than an airfield. Vehicle Hangars could fill in for the block houses, and fuel bunkers would certainly be a valid target). The lack of Tiny Tim rockets should be easily made up for by using 500lb bombs, instead. We also don't have escort carriers, but with reduced AAA the standard carriers should be adequate.

So how would we put in the V-1s? You think Croduh could make one? I guess a 262 w/ a bomb on the front?

[Saxman]

We wouldn't need the V-1s themselves, just a V-1 launch SITE model/base to scatter across the maps. All that would REALLY be needed to do this is a "ground" model to put everything on and the launch rails. The rest of the site can be assembled using existing objects.

[ghostdancer]

Yes, assigning the allies to search a sector (saying their is a V-1 base somewhere in this sector) definitely could work. Not sure if we are able to build objects that can be destroyed and not have them show up as some sort of base on the map. Otherwise allies would know exactly where the base was.

Next on objectives. Remember both sides need to be able to score roughly equal points in one way or another. Sinking five CVs takes a lot more ordinance and is harder than hitting 5 V1 bases (or modified Vehicle bases). Just the CV takes 8000 lbs to kill. If a V1 base is equivalent to a Vehicle base (meaning destroy all objects at it) then it would work since I believe Vehicle bases are roughly around 9200 lbs. Will have to check.

Now if you use trains or convoys instead .. well those take much at all and can easily be gunned down. So you might want to think about maybe mixing some other targets in if you use the train idea and if you are giving both sides bombing objectives.

Heck you can even mix in a non V1 objective. Say have a land base where USAAF planes or bombers stage from to hit other industrial targets at the same time. So say maybe 4 V1 bases as targets and then some strat facility or such to mix things up since while this operation is going on, so are others. That gives you even more flexibility to flesh out 3 frames of action.

[Saxman]

Ghost,

As I'd specified, Allied objectives could be as follows:

Five F4U squadrons to hit five sectors. Either a special V-1 object (could possibly treat it like a Shore Battery and attach it as part of a nearby airfield, vehicle base or port? That way it could be destroyable but not show up as a seperate map marker) or a Vehicle Base to substitute would be in each sector. If a special V-1 site is modelled and if it's small enough there may need to be multiple V-1 sites in each sector (say, 3-4) for the Corsairs to hit.

In addition to the Corsairs, the Allies would have a number of TBMs or jabbo F6Fs and/or FM-2s (keeping in theme with a USN/MC strike on continental Europe that was planned but never was) hitting other targets (Ports, airfields, strats, etc) in support.

The German defensive orders would ONLY specify to defend a given sector, containing the Allied objectives. That way, they won't know for sure if they're guarding against F4Us attacking V-1 sites, or TBMs/F6Fs/FM-2s attacking some other target.

Numerically, the Allies would have more individual offensive objectives, but owing to the potential small size of a custom V-1 site (rather than using structures such as VHs, which require 3000lbs of ordinance to drop, use ammo bunkers, fuel tanks, as well as a special V-1 launch rail object that could be put together to require a total of 1500-2000lbs of ordinance to destroy one site) this should balance out the ordinance weight required. Say, TBMs hitting two V bases at 9600lbs of ordinance, and the F4Us hitting 5 sectors each requiring ~4000lbs (1500-2000lbs per V-1 site, with 2-3 sites per sector) of ordinance (39,000lbs) Vs 5 CVs x 8000lbs (40,000lbs) for the Axis.

This should also keep the air-to-air side of things balanced as well. Because while the Allies have fewer objectives to defend, they'll need to devote more fighters to escort their strike packages, and vice-versa).