I have a question..

[Bosco123]

I was flying a couple of weeks ago, with a C.205. I saw a Niki Dive in about 3K away from me, so I just watched. I had some alt, but not a whole lot. I see this Niki coming from about 9 and just pulled out of his dive. I knew he had a lot more E than me and I know that he could have counterd almost any of my moves that I coukd have done, other then turn into him and HO, which I didn't want to do.
Of course, I died. So my question is, how would you have counterd that?

[Spikes]

Lag roll.

[BaldEagl]

Give him your 6.  Turn on WEP if you need to.  Let him dive for you.  As he draws nearer, gradually nose down building speed.  When he hits 1000 pull to near black-out.  He cannot follow you.  He's faster and he will black out if he tries to pull lead or even tries to stay with you.

Now you've dragged him off his perch and equalized E states.  The rest is up to you.

[CAP1]

I was flying a couple of weeks ago, with a C.205. I saw a Niki Dive in about 3K away from me, so I just watched. I had some alt, but not a whole lot. I see this Niki coming from about 9 and just pulled out of his dive. I knew he had a lot more E than me and I know that he could have counterd almost any of my moves that I coukd have done, other then turn into him and HO, which I didn't want to do.
Of course, I died. So my question is, how would you have counterd that?

if he's comming from your 9, then turn into him, in a shallow dive. this builds you some speed, and pretty much screws his guns solution. if it looks like he's gonna try to ho ya, then skid a bit to one side or the other.
 when he goes back up, them you immel. you'll bleed a lot of e, but you'll also gain some alt. by the time he's comming back at ya, do the same. it might be necessary to change it slghtly, but this seems to work for me most times.

 if he's comming from your 6, then start a gentle turn..either way. as he gets closer, tighten your turn. if it looks like he's trying to correct for a guns solution, then keep tightening it. he won't be able to match. as he overshoots, use top rudder and a little top aielron to roll up and out of the turn.....watch where he goes, and you should get one quick shot at him as he goes by ya.
 that works almost 1/2 the time for me.

<<S>>

[BaldEagl]

...them you immel. you'll bleed a lot of e, but you'll also gain some alt.

The Immelman was designed as an energy conserving manouver, therefore, you will not bleed a lot of E by using it.  You will in fact, retain the vast majority of your E.

Energy (E) is the sum of speed (kinetic energy) and altitude (potential energy).  Each can be exchanged for the other.  In an Immelmann, you simply trade speed for alt but your overall E state remains relatively constant (minor loss due to the effects of gravity and air friction).

[SlapShot]

If he was 3K out and aggressively turned into you with a dive ... I would have done the same, building my E up to match or surpass his at the merge. Seeing that you had a slight alt advantage, you most likely would have had a better E advantage at the merge and could have dictated the fight.

Whenever I approach a fight, I always, if possible, like to turn into my opponent ... not for the HO. Turning into your opponent makes it that much harder for them to get a guns solution on you, and at the same time, gives you many more options for counter moves and/or gives them many more options to screw up.

[CAP1]

The Immelman was designed as an energy conserving manouver, therefore, you will not bleed a lot of E by using it.  You will in fact, retain the vast majority of your E.

Energy (E) is the sum of speed (kinetic energy) and altitude (potential energy).  Each can be exchanged for the other.  In an Immelmann, you simply trade speed for alt but your overall E state remains relatively constant (minor loss due to the effects of gravity and air friction).

possibly i misphrased then? i meant that when yu rolled out at the top, you'd be at a lower speed, but it comes back fairly quickly. i just do this carefully as my attacker is higher than me. i kinda bank on him not realizing what i'm doing, as he's busy setting up for another pass from alt.........

<<S>>

[infowars]

Wow,  love it guys.  Thats what I needed too.  Good question.

[CAP1]

Wow,  love it guys.  Thats what I needed too.  Good question.

wellllll.........don't be afraid to ask. some of those guys(most really) answer much better than i do, but then i've only been at this for a couple years....i still try to offer what help i can..........and everyone in here is happy to help.

[HAMMERR]

Lag roll.

I need more of a description about this one.  I havent heard the  term.

[SlapShot]

I need more of a description about this one.  I havent heard the  term.

Lag Roll

A rolling maneuver, executed from an offensive position, performed opposite the direction of target turn in an attempt to reduce aspect angle and/ or control closure. Used to achieve rear aspect heat missile parameters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJlVV-j3NYI

In the scenario described by the original poster, a lag roll would not apply, seeing the he was not in an "offensive position".

NOTE: Google is your friend.

[Bosco123]

Lag roll wouldn't realy help in this situation. an Immlman would work well here, but I think that diving and pulling hard if he turns with you would help alot better that the immlman because you will only get a snapshot on him with the immlman. With the dive out, you will make him turn and reverse his E.

[bj229r]

Give him your 6.  Turn on WEP if you need to.  Let him dive for you.  As he draws nearer, gradually nose down building speed.  When he hits 1000 pull to near black-out.  He cannot follow you.  He's faster and he will black out if he tries to pull lead or even tries to stay with you.

Now you've dragged him off his perch and equalized E states.  The rest is up to you.

That works with jug against several planes as well

[EskimoJoe]

Give him your 6.  Turn on WEP if you need to.  Let him dive for you.  As he draws nearer, gradually nose down building speed.  When he hits 1000 pull to near black-out.  He cannot follow you.  He's faster and he will black out if he tries to pull lead or even tries to stay with you.

Now you've dragged him off his perch and equalized E states.  The rest is up to you.

I've preformed this maneuver several times, with great success. I usually get him to 800-600 before the violent pull, though.

[Mace2004]

Some of the others have mentioned it but I just wanted to emphasize that when you're jumped from a position of advantage turning into the threat is usually the best option.  Do not make the mistake that many in the AH arenas seem to make and that's equating a turn into the threat with a HO.  Turning into the threat is not a "HO" and is the very first thing a new fighter pilot learns to do when attacked.

In the situation you describe the bandit has both a position and e advantage.  The way to survive and win is to neutralize these advantages starting with position since position is what allows him to shoot you, not e.  Baldeagle's suggested maneuver is certainly valid but is dependant upon how much e and altitude each of you have along with how smart the bandit is.  If you're slow (say you're jumped on climb out) he may catch you before you gain enough e to pull the g necessary for him to overshoot.  Also, if he's smart he'll throttle back, lag your turn a bit and then saddle up on you.

On the other hand, if you turn into him you'll negate some, maybe all, of his position advantage even though he maintains his e advantage.  If you can pass close aboard and a full 180 out  (beak to beak) you've neutralized his position advantage and you can then immediately extend for separation while he has to complete a 180 degree reversal to get his nose back on.  Will you gain enough separation to get away?  It depends on your comparative aircraft performance and altitude but probably not; however, by forcing him to turn 180 and then chase you, you're equalizing e-states by making him drive a longer horizontal distance.  When you see him getting his nose back in your direction be prepared turn into him again and repeat the process until you've neutralized his e advantage.

This is certainly not the only way you can handle this but there are the fundamental ACM rules such as turning into your opponent and then there are the "graduate level" tactics.  Since it sounds like you may be relatively new, work on negating the threat first and then work your way up to the higher level (and usually risker) tactics.  Let me add one more thing.  Will turning into the threat mean you'll "win".  No, of course not.  Anytime a bandit has an advantage at the start of the fight it's a very very tough situation for you and you'll lose more often than you'll win or escape but you will survive longer and learn while doing it.