The Icon Dillema

[Wingnut_0]

I absolutely love flying no icons against others.  One of my favorite fights happened in the Med map, near sunset..109 vs. 109.

Camo was that you?  Been quite some time ago.  We looped, extended...I lost him several times against the water, only to catch him agains the sky once I went low.  Was most exciting.

And yes if there was a way that I could turn off enemy Icons and they wouldn't be able to see mine I'd be satified.
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Wingnut
Luftjagerkorps
   

The quality of the box matters little.  Success depends upon the man who sits in it  -  Baron Manfred von Richthofen

[This message has been edited by Wingnut_0 (edited 01-28-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Wingnut_0 (edited 01-28-2001).]

[Effdub]

just for the record... I also luv the "no icon variety"  

I wonder if those who want icons have ever tried flying without them...

I've had the luck to fly without icons in WB and find that the: "Monitors are too limited to reflect RL argument" absolutly incorrect.

1) Predicting Range not accurate with monitor... RL Pilots had the same probs - Erich Hartmans advice was to get real close before firing. Worked great for me in WB.

2) Can't move head like in RL... RL Pilots diden't fly in sunny weather 100% of the time like we do in AH. RL pilots had to cope with haze, clouds, sun glare, canopy reflections etc.

3) You lose your opponent too fast... Well, it's way better if the opponent gets the "chance" to actually manouver out of sight than the way it is now - for now its near impossible to shake someone of one's tail, no matter how "smart" your move was  

4) Camoflage: Totally useless with icons. The day I flew WB without icons I spent a lot of time low lvl. In AH you "know" the only way to win a dogfight is coming in higher than your opponent  

I find it strange that people interested in "flying WWII aircraft" woulden't at least want to get the chance to experience how it "must have been back then".

Losing icons is one step in the right direction.

Effdub

[Tac]

Aye, in my opinion it is THE step towards it.

Icons are crack... curse all them pothead iconjunkies!  

[Jekyll]

Anyone remember that short period around the time of 1.04 when the TA was icon-less?

It was absolutely amazing.  I remember coming off fights there with my heart pounding and my hands shaking.

For someone who enjoys ACM and not simply 'shoot when range hits 500yds' it was the most immersive time I've ever spent in AH.

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=357th Pony Express=
Aces High Training Corps

[flakbait]

Tac, $5 says icons OFF never happens in the MA. Realism junkies, yeesh. I fly with different icon settings all the time. In H2H games I'll turn 'em off, friendly only, or plane type only. I don't care which, because it's something different and I can control it. You sit someone new down in front of your comp and crank AH. You get him in the MA and into a nice little fight. Without icons you can't expect new people to get any kills. This means very few new players will come over to AH.

Every time I flew in the MA I had icons ON, same goes for the TA most of the time. If you want no icons, get enough people here to justify a Historical or Realistic Arena. Once that happens I'm sure HT or Pyro will set one up. And three weeks later it'll be closed due to a lack of users.

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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"With all due respect Chaplian, I don't think God wants to hear from me right now.
I'm gonna go out there and remove one of His creations from this universe.
And when I get back I'm gonna drink a bottle of Scotch like it was Chiggy von Richthofen's blood and celebrate his death."
Col. McQueen, Space: Above and Beyond
 

[Tac]

Im pushing for friendly icons only in the MA flakbait, not for all icons off. Itd be a nightmare with all icons off if there is no historical planeset that could give you a hint of who is who in the skies.

Almost everyone that comes into AH has experience from other sims. Be they from other online sims or from single players like Jane's WW2 Fighters or Aces of the Pacific or whatever. Ive only come across ONE person in the MA which didnt know that pulling back on the stick pulled the nose up. Havent seen that 2 weeker again.

To be truthful though, any newbie here WONT get any kills in his/her first few days, AH skies are full of mercyless vets   They'll even chute them too!


Realism junkies?

*sarcasm mode on*
Hmm.. okay. Set all the planes to behave at their best at any alt, tone the FM so that newbies can turnfight without stalling, add more ammo so I can spray & stay in a furball longer... and oh yeah, get rid of that Torque effect on the airplanes, it doesnt allow me to land my F4U. Im in AH to play and have fun, not because it is one of the best "realistic" ww2 air combat sims out there. I want AH to become like FA!! To hell with realism, I wanna play and have fun!

*sarcasm mode off*

Get my point? As long as there are enemy icon, screaming your position and laser-ranging you, you are GUARANTEED to NOT have a ww2-like dogfight. You may have the planes modeled perfectly, icons will still screw the whole reason why the planes are there in the first place.

[Ripsnort]

RWY, seems to have zipped over everyones head in this post..outstanding idea!

[Eagler]

icons = more $$$$
no icons = less $$$$

Guess which way it'll go....

Eagler

[Effdub]

quote:

"Without icons you can't expect new people to get any kills. This means very few new players will come over to AH."

Hmmm, people fly AH only to get kills? That's the only goal? Really...?

I don't think so... When I started flying online I did it because I was interested in airial combat. I build aiplane models, I've read books on the subject, I wanted a game that simulates that so I joined WB. I was killed alot in the beginning but I had expected that. Did it stop me from flying? no!

Bottom line: don't underestimate a newbies motives, don't treat 'em like babies - even you started as a newbie once...

Newbies accept limited ammo, torque, energy models, stalls etc... do you really think they would not accept a "no icon arena?"

Well, maybe I'm wrong - maybe this really is a "quake generation" that dosen't give a damn about flightsims, as long as they get their instant guarranteed kill as soon as they enter the MA for the first time.

WB had a relaxed arena for those newbies you're talking about... but when they "grow up" they'll be looking for something that's more fun, and flying without Icons IS fun - the "realism factor" is just a side effect.

I'm ok with simply pressing "E" to start up the engines - I'm well aware that's not realistic, but it has no significant relevance in gameplay if I fiddle with "auto rich" or whatever, but icons have a huge impact on gameplay.

Aw well, HTC wants to appeal to a mass market so they have to make a game that's toned down so that even people without an specific interest in WWII combat would want to play... but if that's the case, why would WE want to fly AH?

Effdub (has flown without icons  

[Karnak]

You can take away Icons when you give me a virtual reality headset with a resolution and frame rate equal to real life and when there are no lag jumps on the part of the enemy.  Then it will be realistic.

All the talk you guys are doing now is BS.  Realism, my ass.  What you're suggesting is so much more difficult than reality its scary.  And you think its realistic.  Thats laughable.

Face it, you guys just want to make it harder so you can pride yourselves on being "l33t".

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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

Sisu
-Karnak

[hitech]

Tac: Flip side sarcasim.

All planes should require 10 min warm up and preflight, All fields should be spaced at least 1:00 hour flying time arpart, no airfield was ever that close together, all auto pilots should be removed because most planes didn't have them, and you should have a relife tube so you can't leave your chair, oh yah need to get rid of the channel 100 because in WWII no one ever talked to the enemy, an if you die you should never be able to play the game again.

Sarcasm off:

I realy do get sick of the realism argument because people who use it only wan't there special nit pick on realism but want to protray realism as the only goal worth going after. To that I say bull pucky, Realism is a game issue just like every other topic such as, fun,socail issues, technical issues , balencing getting new players into the game vs provideing a challeng for older players,balancing the difference in all peoples equipment some people have 25" monitors running at 1600x1200 others run 17" at 800x600 now tell me no icons is even close to fair between those 2 different systems.

HiTech

[Tac]

HT, I used that realism comparison because the ACM without icons is truely something completely different than ACM with icons. All im focusing here is the difference in ACM with icons and without.

For me, one thing is realism for the modeled airplanes (aka, engine management and the what not) and icons is something different. Im not saying AH HAS to be completely realistic, im saying that icons make ACM'ing be so radically different from all the dogfight accounts ive read, all the ww2 gun footage/films ive seen, pilot interviews (bless Discovery Wings and the History Channel!   ) , etc. that I come to AH and dont see anything that comes even close to it due to icons. Go to H2H, no enemy icons..WOW. It hits "the spot" smack on target.

"and you should have a relife tube so you can't leave your chair"

Dude, if you can model THAT i'll sell ya my soul!  

I've ran AH in 640X480 and in the 1280X1024 mode. The game does look different perspective-wise, but its still the same thing imho. Well, no, the dots and cons do look bigger in 640X480   I have a 17" viewable monitor, my H2H pals (neighbors) have 15" viewable (he can play in 32 bit mode argh! it looks so much nicer!). I personally dont see any significant difference.  

BTW, what is this "RWY" and "L33T" thing I read so much about? Im clueless   .

[This message has been edited by Tac (edited 01-30-2001).]

[Jekyll]

 

some people have 25" monitors running at 1600x1200 others run 17" at 800x600 now tell me no icons is even close to fair between those 2 different systems.

So tell me why we have accurate to the yard laser ranging all the way from 6000yds to 0?

I can accept the need for some kind of icon, but continuous range data?  We had this back in AW in 1985.  15 years later and we are still stuck in the same old icon model?  3d graphics, 32 bit colour, average monitor size has increased from 14" to 17", higher resolutions on those monitors.

And THIS is the best we can do in 2001?

Seriously HT, Aces High has raised the bar on so many aspects of WW2 flight 'sims' or 'games'.  Remember when some on other boards were saying AH would never be able to implement clouds - they were too bandwidth intensive?  Well, you guys did it, and did it brilliantly.  Ground vehicles, ships, 3d cockpits, drop tanks, damage modelling: all those things raised AH above its competition.  

Surely in 2001 there is a different way of representing distance between aircraft. Whether it be sliding range bars, icons which are time and range dependent, differing icon modes varying with range .....

I just don't see where any of that is going to disadvantage someone using a lower resolution display.


[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 01-30-2001).]

[Octavius]

Why not try some sort of compromise?  Maybe HT could alternate days of friendly icons and full icon options in the main arena.  Cheesy?  Maybe, but its a start to ending the madness of endless debates.

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-=///Octavius\\\=-
VMF-323 "Death Rattlers"
MAG-33
(AKA Executor)
Maz203@aol.com

[Tac]

HT will do what he thinks needs to be done for his game, not give in to endless BBS posting.

ACM with icons is one thing, ACM without enemy icons is completely different. IMHO, without enemy icons the game suddenly becomes frighteningly realistic. You can taste the combat. You can surprise, bounce, sneak in, make the other lose sight of you, etc.Many of my iconless fights end up with both fighters losing sight and extending and disengaging. Surprisingly, enemy-iconless fights have a LOT of return-to-base with kills.. because you CAN escape with a less capable craft from the endless hordes of high alt high speed planes that will see your smacking red icon below them as you return to base OR as you disengage from a furball.

Icons are heroin.