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Author Topic: The Icon Dillema  (Read 732 times)

Offline Tac

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The Icon Dillema
« on: January 27, 2001, 03:27:00 PM »
Icons... the almighty billboards.

Icons... ruining the WW2 simulation of AH.

Icons... are evil and must be destroyed...

Icons... are red and I have a hard time seeing them in the green background... curse my color blindness...

Icons... what to do with them?


It is fair to say that when any of us is in combat, in the middle of a furball, all we do is go to the 6 'oc view for a split second just to check for red icons. Right?

I've played AH in H2H with friendly icons only, and the simulation "experience" was enchanced exponentially. Why? I dont have laser ranging icons that tell me exactly the range so I can take those 700 yds + shots, I dont have a big red icon to scream the location of the fighter that is about to jump me, I have to be alert and paranoid all the time. The heart pumps faster...

On friendly icons only fights, ACM'ing is quite different. You twist, you turn, you stay in someone's 6... the person you are attacking may do a tight turn below your nose, and then turn the other way... you may lose sight of him... for there is no red billboard magically pointing where your target went in a split second panic scan of all views to find "the icon I was following". Lost sight, time to extend and try again.

I would suggest to HTC the following:

1) Make the MA be friendly icons only. Only Friendly Icons have laser range finders.

2) Code in a "target" function. The only red icon (without laser range-finder) you would see is the one you have "targeted". This would also allow HTC to code a "lock view" option, since your eyes would only follow the targeted icon.

Most kills in WW2 were achieved with the victim never knowing or knowing too late that they were under attack. Their furballs also didnt have big icons showing them what plane type/exact range/location of the dozen or more aircraft around him.

Icons in my opinion are the worst "gameplay" addition to any WW2 sim. They are the heroin of this game.. pilots addicted to it depend on it utterly. For ye they love their omniscience and Great Power of 700yds Spraying. They love being unable to be suprised or jumped, for yae this drug giveth them multi-tracking eyes and overlays their vision with groovy red billboards...and he shall never fear...

*dons asbestos suit and awaits the flames from the addicts*
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Offline Maverick

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The Icon Dillema
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2001, 04:36:00 PM »
Don't like icons??? Turn them off and play with out them. I like them and they serve a function in this game. Note, I said game not simulation. This is a game now more than ever with the perk system coming. There is no depth perception. There is limited ability to ID aircraft as to type, country and so on. As long as this game is going to be played on a PC with a monitor you will not be able to overcome those problems.

Frankly, with the large cockpit obstructions (ie canopy rails) that you can't instantly look around like you could in RL by simply moving your head or using both eyes, the disappearing icons are already a compromise to visibility of the enemy plane.

BTW you do now have the option to use friendly only icons on your view choices. Enjoy, but leave them alone for the rest of us that want them.

Mav
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Offline Jekyll

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The Icon Dillema
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2001, 05:15:00 PM »
Agreed Tac.  I asked HT yesterday when, if ever, we would have no range data within 2000yds.

It appears that will never happen  

Mind you, I've got no problem with aircraft type, or even sub-type within 2000yds.. but accurate-to-the-yard range info within 2000yds is simply a joke.

And Maverick, unfortunately I agree with you also.  AH is becoming 'gamier' by the minute.

Sad to see a 'sim' which held such great promise, which was so ground-breaking in some of its visuals and features, take the path of least resistance.

Oh well, something wonderful is about to happen  
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Offline Kirin

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The Icon Dillema
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2001, 07:27:00 PM »
*

[This message has been edited by Kirin (edited 01-27-2001).]
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Offline Kirin

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The Icon Dillema
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2001, 07:30:00 PM »
Weee Tac, ever tried "no icons" at all in a historical planeset fight? Man, that was a long time ago but it was the most fun I had in AH! I shot down a friendly 109 because I mistook it for a Spit - aww, come on in a front quarter approach they both have light spinners...  

"Friendly icon only"- historical arena? Oh what a dream.

Yup, AH is taking a direction a don't like very much but at the moment there is no alternative. As Jekyll says, there is something wonderful about to happen - hope we won't get disappointed there...  

BTW, Maverick - no depth perception beyond 10 meters and stereoscopic vision is only a part of it anyway...
Yeah right, using "friendly only" icon in MA while everyone else is on those billboard icons   That's almost like flying LW planes in MA. But oth CHogs and icons very, very well together...  

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~Kirin~
 

[This message has been edited by Kirin (edited 01-27-2001).]
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Offline Tac

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The Icon Dillema
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2001, 07:47:00 PM »
I love it when people put a foot in their mouth. Icon addicts... *sigh*  

"Don't like icons??? Turn them off and play with out them."

Yes, let me turn off my icons while everyone else has them. Im sure that will make them ACM me in the same way as I will ACM them. Tell you what Maverick... one day in the MA meet me in a sector and we'll both use friendly icons only for one fight. Then YOU turn icons off and I will use full icons. Perhaps then you will understand my point.

"Frankly, with the large cockpit obstructions (ie canopy rails) that you can't instantly look around like you could in RL by simply moving your head or using both eyes.."

Yes, of course. I forgot the human body is able to turn the neck around in less than .5 seconds and inmediately identify and range multiple things when under 6g's, then do a similar scan of every possible view under the same g's.

AH is becoming a lot more like Fighter Ace and MS Combat sim. Its becoming a GAME more than a simulation. Take away the enemy icons and you will inmediately notice a GREAT difference in how dogfights are done. A great, great difference.

That you dont have depth perception? So what? Dont tell me you cant tell the difference between a DOT and a plane shape (and yes, AH's planes DO grow in size when you get closer)? I have no problems judging distance with icons off.

"Weee Tac, ever tried "no icons" at all in a historical planeset fight? Man, that was a long time ago but it was the most fun I had in AH! I shot down a friendly 109 because I mistook it for a Spit - aww, come on in a front quarter approach they both have light spinners"

Hehe, only in H2H. Ive not been able to catch a SEA with no icons. All the ones ive been in use historical planeset but use full icons   . BTW, that has historical precedence.. both the LW and RAF pilots hated that the spit and 109s looked similar, many friendly fire cases too.
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Offline Toad

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The Icon Dillema
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2001, 08:08:00 PM »
I don't think the technology is up to no icons yet. Period.

I think you'll find that most people that have done a lot of RL flying feel that the PC/monitor combo is WAY more limiting and restricting than RL.

That's why we have icons.

EDIT: BTW, this is not to say that I don't think the present icon system couldn't be improved. There have been a lot of threads on that subject and some fine ideas have surfaced.

You want "no icons" as a difficulty level, that's one idea and a choice you can campaign for HTC to implement. But it's a "game" factor.

You want "no icons" as a realism factor and I think that's an entirely different thing. I feel it would be incorrect given the "state of the art".


[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 01-27-2001).]
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Offline Sunchaser

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The Icon Dillema
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2001, 09:44:00 PM »
Historical Arena Please, HTC.

Icons are a necessary evil to bring in the paying gaming customers and the only way out for a simmer is an arena with historical matchups and enough guys to support it.


I hope it is soon,


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When did they put this thing in here and WTF is it for?
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Offline Maverick

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The Icon Dillema
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2001, 12:19:00 AM »
Tac,

What is your point. If you don't like the icons then turn them off. It's your choice. Just don't try to limit my choices. I pay $30.00 like (I hope) the majority of players do. I see no reason to limit it for many other players because you don't like them. You want to label me an addict, that is your problem, you own it I don't.

Mav
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Offline Tac

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The Icon Dillema
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2001, 01:20:00 AM »
Mav, what are you here for? To enjoy a simulation of WW2 combat (aka ACM) or to just play a game?

ACM without icons and you will notice a HUGE difference in your dogfights. Its such a radical difference that you start flying with a totally different perspective. You have to try it out.

Icons make this sim be just a harder FM Fighter Ace. And that is very sad imho  
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Offline Zigrat

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The Icon Dillema
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2001, 01:59:00 AM »
i agree

right now my defensive style of fighting i used left m helpless in a iconless environment

right now i can do lots of reversals, quickly hit the number keys and re acquire once i see red


i was playing h2h no icons, and without them i would loose my persuer and he would get me since i didnt know which way to dodge next


was more exciting imo

but cant do no icons without historical planesets, and historical planesets impossible till planeset isf fleshed out


so for now i want icons. once we have a complete set, noo icons id be up for.
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Offline LLv34_Camouflage

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The Icon Dillema
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2001, 02:42:00 AM »
I always liked the idea that if you turned enemy icons off, the enemies would loose your icon as well.    And I can only imagine the whine flood on this forum if it was implemented.  

Zigrat, you are right - no icons gaming needs a historical planeset.  Such as in scenarios.  Unfortunately, right now, the CM's can't disable icons or edit the distances. There are two preset settings, short (nme icons D3k) and far (MA settings, D6k).  But if we're talking about friendly only icons - that doesnt need a historical planeset.

Friendly only icons -games are so much fun. Some of my squaddies play at 800x600 on a 15" monitor and have absolutely no problems in an iconless environment. Everything can be learned. Those who protest because they are not used to it - try it for example in the TA or host a H2H game!

Here's what reduced icon settings -gaming is at its best:    AAR's from the two LLv34 vs 5 GIAP squadron duels:

 http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum7/HTML/000124.html
 http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum7/HTML/000320.html


Camo


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where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."
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Offline Robert

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The Icon Dillema
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2001, 11:17:00 AM »
you guys want no icons
have it set where your perk ponits is 4x if you have the icons off. have it where you have to set it before you take off in the tower.  full icons= 1x perk
friendly only = 2x perk
no icons = 4x perk


RWY
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Offline Tac

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The Icon Dillema
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2001, 01:05:00 PM »
I may be missing your point Zigrat, but why cant you have no enemy icons unless you have a historical planeset?

I am not pushing for a NO ICONS arena, as the vast difference of AC (and lack of german/italian/japanese AC like bombers and stuff) would make ID'ng a friendly be utterly impossible. FRIENDLY ICONS ONLY arena would ID your countrymates and fix that..anything without an icon is of course, a target   .

In the SEA it would be perfect to have no icons, as it is where the historical planesets would be used.

[This message has been edited by Tac (edited 01-28-2001).]
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Offline Zigrat

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The Icon Dillema
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2001, 01:41:00 PM »
well no icons isnt gonna happen in teh ma because of gamers like mav,

so i would like the sea 3k settings to be implimented into the ma

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