Stirring.

[PanosGR]

Huge problem when u r at their 6 six o;clock position ( Spit XVI or a 190). They literally travel through time and space in secs, dancing all over the place that a human body cant withstand all these neg Gs. It is like playing another flight sim any other flight sim in Fast forward.

[dedalos]

It is not a question of them being a nube and an easy kill.  The result of what you see is that you end up too slow and taking too long to kill them, and their buddy has time to come in for the pick.  If no one around, it ends your play time since the flopping combined with the mini warps, flying through tracers and other game futures completely wastes your ammo

[Wingnutt]

It is not a question of them being a nube and an easy kill.  The result of what you see is that you end up too slow and taking too long to kill them, and their buddy has time to come in for the pick. 

This is an excellent point that I totally forgot to bring up. Point being that except in the somewhat rare instance of a true 1V1 with no other cons anywhere near, the added time and loss of speed that having to deal with the  sapzzout causes, leaves you very vulnerable to attack..   where as if the land trout situation had not occurred, you would very likely have more speed, and already be on climb out/evasives.

[moot]

190s.  Born, to do it

Noobs in 190s.

The Don't move controls so rapidly should account for Gs, not just input.  In fact, input shouldn't be frozen for fast movements, if they don't produce any Gs.  Like in very sharp stalls and counter-stalls trying to man handle a plane thru an off balance acm.

[1701E]

Ya just need a little target practice

[saantana]

I read somewhere that a top LW ace had a negative G manouver when someone was diving on him from high six oclock.
It was something to the manner of front right stick all the way and opposite rudder producing an overshot.
But I suppose that doesn't apply to people throwing their stick around like.. like.. like me  
Now seriously, I openly admit I've done a bit of stick stirring myself, and sometimes it trully does work but only with chopped throttle trying to force an overshoot, or when Im in my 190 D9 and a hurri 2c places itself firmly on my six on the deck. What do you want me to do then? 
And I've seen top vets do it as well. I won't mention names here (cough cough), some that have replied to this thread also. 
Oh wait, that was Daveys 38.

[Ghastly]

Noobs in 190s.

The Don't move controls so rapidly should account for Gs, not just input.  In fact, input shouldn't be frozen for fast movements, if they don't produce any Gs.  Like in very sharp stalls and counter-stalls trying to man handle a plane thru an off balance acm.

No Moot, you're not thinking it all the way through.  The reason that the "Don't move controls so rapidly" needs to be based off of stick movement is that the information regarding your opponents aircraft is not instananeous and continuous (which you of course know) but is sent on a periodic basis, which your system must then extrapolate from until it receives the next update.  (Which you also know I'm sure, but you're not thinking through what that means...)

What do you think your system is going to show you on your FE if your target has his joystick pulled back as far as he can on one update, and then pushed it as far forward as he can on the next update 1/4 to a half second later?  (regardless of the whether his inputs are changing so fast back and forth that the net change in G-loading on his front end is minimal?)

<S>

[SlapShot]

Now seriously, I openly admit I've done a bit of stick stirring myself, and sometimes it trully does work but only with chopped throttle trying to force an overshoot, or when Im in my 190 D9 and a hurri 2c places itself firmly on my six on the deck. What do you want me to do then? 

Hence this discussion ... you shouldn't be able to do what you do without some sort of physical (game limiting) circumstance ... if the results of such moves can be realized by the code and then stop you from doing it is what is needed.

[moot]

Yes, extrapolated from acceleration.  Acceleration from a lot of the quick stick movements I make are barely detectable, they'd never cause warping at close ranges like those I'm at when I (e.g.) go back and forth on the ailerons to calm snap roll departures as I try to pull up right away from a very very slow rope.  The only warping there'd be would be very limited roll movements.. No longitudinal or lateral or vertical accelerations..

What do you think your system is going to show you on your FE if your target has his joystick pulled back as far as he can on one update, and then pushed it as far forward as he can on the next update 1/4 to a half second later?  (regardless of the whether his inputs are changing so fast back and forth that the net change in G-loading on his front end is minimal?)

So we're back to what I said.  If there's no excessive accelerations happening (within effective extrapolated constraints), there's no need to apply anti warping stick-stirring limiters.  If I'm doing 135mph in a Ta152 and am pulling up the whole time I'm coming down from the top of a 50mph rope 5 seconds earlier, and the plane starts trying to snap roll out, and I start pilot-inducing those rolls a bit (the same way pilots induce nose bounce when their inputs are off on the oscillation timing by even a bit).. There'd be longitudinal or lateral or vertical accelerations.  Maybe some roll warps, but it'd be 45deg roll to either side, at most.

[Ghastly]

No Moot.

Your FE is going to display your enemy's aircraft performing a max deflection maneuver changing course and orientation extrapolating forward from the current update until it gets it's next update, at which point your system is going to show the enemy aircraft warping to it's proper location, course and orientation which it's then going to extrapolate forward into yet more bizarre physic's defying changes in course and orientation based upon the instantaneous control inputs.

In other sims I've flown that didn't implement similar logic, stick-stirring is at least 10 times as effective as it is here - and 100 times more annoying.

<S>

[saantana]

Hence this discussion ... you shouldn't be able to do what you do without some sort of physical (game limiting) circumstance ... if the results of such moves can be realized by the code and then stop you from doing it is what is needed.

Anyone cant stick stirr without pulling negative g's also.  
If you limit stick movements further, game will be unplayable. How is the game supposed to know if you are trying to keep the plane from stalling on top of a rope and applying rapid rudder movements and/or elevators/aelorons as opposed to 'pissing someone off' on my six at 200 who I'm not straightening out for, for an easy kill?
 Who said I can't be hard on the controls? I'll throw my stick how i fancy, much like the pilots in WW2 did.  
My guess is that stick stirring is here to stay. If it means expending more ammo, deal with it.  
But.. thts just my 2 cents

[moot]

I know what you're saying, but I think the extrapolation at the ranges I pull that stuff off (very close) wouldn't produce warps..  I would go film a clip so you see how little acceleration there is, but my PC is fried.  If the film viewer had telemetry, you'd see the XYZ G meters have pretty smooth curves with barely a few blips because of the snap roll departures and me trying to catch them.  The only fast inputs are to the ailerons, and what X, Y, or Z acceleration does that produce?  I doubt there's any.

And now that I think about it, I've had it happen while flying next to someone who plays from Japan, so the connection between me and him (wingzero) is pretty bad, he says so himself.  But he doesn't see any XYZ warps, only the snap roll accelerations.  And picture it, a Ta152 has barely any lift authority at ~120-140mph to begin with, so I'm not making this up.  A 10,000lbs+ plane with only 2000hp, and so little control authority..  How much acceleration is it effectively going to produce as it does some limited snap rolls (like I said, ~35deg or less, mostly I catch them before 10deg or so) as it's pulling up as hard as it can at such low speeds? It's already way down at the bottom of its E budget  There's at least this case where fast aileron inputs don't produce any significant motion besides the snap rolls, and I think it's not worth being restricted by a stick stir limiter for it.

I'll make a film and post it to this thread once my PC's working again.
<S>

[Anaxogoras]

I read somewhere that a top LW ace had a negative G manouver when someone was diving on him from high six oclock.
It was something to the manner of front right stick all the way and opposite rudder producing an overshot.
But I suppose that doesn't apply to people throwing their stick around like.. like.. like me  
Now seriously, I openly admit I've done a bit of stick stirring myself, and sometimes it trully does work but only with chopped throttle trying to force an overshoot, or when Im in my 190 D9 and a hurri 2c places itself firmly on my six on the deck. What do you want me to do then? 
And I've seen top vets do it as well. I won't mention names here (cough cough), some that have replied to this thread also. 
Oh wait, that was Daveys 38.

Hi saantana,

The ace you are talking about is Erich Hartmann.  Negative G evasives are always possible, but just not the way many people do them in AH.   I have done some basic aerobatics in real-life_tm, and the G's will make you vomit if you're not ready for it.

What do you want me to do then?

  Anything but stick stirring?  If you find ourself in that kind of situation, you were already beat.  It's up to you to rely on the limitations of the net for a reprieve if you desire one.

As for "flopping," fencer once said it looked like I was flopping in the 190F8 when I was simply doing a scissors at about 250mph.  The roll rate of the 190 is just too much for internet lag at those kinds of speeds.  Most of the funky-stuff I see is not from scissors, however, but from simple up-and-down motions with the elevator.  It's clear that these pilots are pumping the elevator as erratically as possible.  Sometimes I can ID a pilot just by the way he causes net-lag warps.

[saantana]

Hi saantana,

The ace you are talking about is Erich Hartmann.  Negative G evasives are always possible, but just not the way many people do them in AH.   I have done some basic aerobatics in real-life_tm, and the G's will make you vomit if you're not ready for it.
  Anything but stick stirring?  If you find ourself in that kind of situation, you were already beat.  It's up to you to rely on the limitations of the net for a reprieve if you desire one.

As for "flopping," fencer once said it looked like I was flopping in the 190F8 when I was simply doing a scissors at about 250mph.  The roll rate of the 190 is just too much for internet lag at those kinds of speeds.  Most of the funky-stuff I see is not from scissors, however, but from simple up-and-down motions with the elevator.  It's clear that these pilots are pumping the elevator as erratically as possible.  Sometimes I can ID a pilot just by the way he causes net-lag warps.

Well pumping the elevator up and down to achieve an overshoot, I agree is not the way to do it.
But throwing the stick front right and applying rudder to achieve rapid deceleration and then possibly breaking to a scissors momentarily after - would that be stick stirring?
Me thinks not.
I have done that many times and have been accused of stirring, when infact I trully believe some of these manouvers can be well rehearsed and highly effective if executed correctly. Not randomly throwing the stick in opposite directions in zig zag patterns

[CAP1]

Hence this discussion ... you shouldn't be able to do what you do without some sort of physical (game limiting) circumstance ... if the results of such moves can be realized by the code and then stop you from doing it is what is needed.

actually, when i've done something in offline mode too fast, i get the ""don't move your controls so fast"" message.
then the controls seem to be less effective fopr a few seconds.
 shouldnt this happen ingame too?