Pickers and runners please help me understand...

[Zazen13]

The problem is the 500mph pickers that run out of icon range on the first reversal, while hiding under the "it's my plane's advantage" excuse for not losing their cartoon plane.

Imagine if your favorite fullback run a safety in to not get tackled, just because he can run faster.

I am contending that anyone who seriously runs out of icon range after a missed gun pass, never pressing the attack, is so ineffectual as to be tactically insignificant. If that is literally all they can/will do they are virtually no threat and can be all but ignored...If you have even decent SA that should be no problem.

That being said, I have, on countless occasions, found myself ground to a stalemate while pressing the attack with an energy advantage against a turny bird. A good pilot in a very maneuverable plane can often do this to an aggressive pilot in a less maneuverable plane with more E. At that point you have a choice, disengage or get into a knife fight in a telephone booth with a plane that can out-turn you by a factor of 2 to 1. Those not pathelogically pre-occupied with other's perception of their E-Peen would disengage, reset, and re-engage if possible, saluting the turner for a job well-done even if they are ultimately successful in bringing him down.

[vonKrimm]

Why play an on-line multi-player sim, when all you do is run away when confronted with the very thing that the simulation was designed for, online air combat?  My desire is to understand the mental defect that thinks this style of play is fun.

Perhaps the K4 pilot's taste runs to girls and beef, while you prefer boys and sheep for fun; who cares.  That does not make his way "mental defect", just different.  Obviously he enjoyed his style of play; you seem to be complaining, so you must not have enjoyed your style very much; but perhaps I read too much into your post?

You also pointed-out (maybe I'm wrong) that if he got shot down he could re-up another cartoon plane.  Question is: after his 'tater gun took your wing, did you get another cartoon plane? +

I suspect he knew I was a better stick, and chose to wait till one of his "friends" caught my attention using them as a sacrificial lamb to better his personal score.  Honestly, when I see a player on the green side doing that, I don't help them.  

Really?!  Even if you don't help the stalker directly, you would assist him indirectly by helping the lamb.  Or is it that you are stating that you WILL NOT take ANY action when you see such occuring?  My, what a way to play the game.  Oh wait, that was judgemental of me; I should remeber that while I like beef & girls, others may prefer boys & sheep.

Skadoosh

[olskool2]

I am contending that anyone who seriously runs out of icon range after a missed gun pass, never pressing the attack, is so ineffectual as to be tactically insignificant. If that is literally all they can/will do they are virtually no threat and can be all but ignored...If you have even decent SA that should be no problem.

That being said, I have, on countless occasions, found myself ground to a stalemate while pressing the attack with an energy advantage against a turny bird. A good pilot in a very maneuverable plane can often do this to an aggressive pilot in a less maneuverable plane with more E. At that point you have a choice, disengage or get into a knife fight in a telephone booth with a plane that can out-turn you by a factor of 2 to 1. Those not pathelogically pre-occupied with other's perception of their E-Peen would disengage, reset, and re-engage if possible, saluting the turner for a job well-done even if they are ultimately successful in bringing him down.

It's not tactically ineffective. They've managed a way to guarantee themselves kills without any threat to them, disengaging just because you're his only target and then returning once he has engaged another target, and/or speeding through a furball, while any reds that make any attempt to follow you will naturally be hung out and get picked. This doesn't add anything to the gameplay.

Beyond that, the dweebery can be expanded much more. The ones that only wanna fight when you're getting ganged, when there is no reason to add your bullets into a 3 vs 1. The planes that exclusively run to and setup friendly planes, even if they have the alt advantage. The ones that come dive into a 1on1 to steal kill (I don't know how many times I've bailed early just so the right person gets their kill), and the list goes on.

Now, when a good pilot comes in a 190d and shows how to use every single bit of E and angle you possibly can, you just consent your owning. If you're good enough to beat his E and get a shot, he should consent to his getting owned off his perch.

[BnZ]

First of all, I don't bnz tactics or planes would exist at all online if planes met co-alt in MA, saluted each other, and fought 1v1 to the finish with no outside interlopers. You'd have to be out of your mind to up something like a Mustang or a Dora in this situation.

Being a bnz tard starts to look like an attractive option only after you realize how full the MA is of gang-pick tards and how little chance of finishing a "fair" fight you have.

Further, If one is having a problem with runners, there is a simple solution.

Fly a faster plane.

The reason why people whine about runners instead of going with this simple expedient is that faster planes tend to be either harder to manuever (P-51, Dora, Typh, P47N) than your Spit-N1K-Hurri crowd, cost perk points (F4U-4, Spit14), or both (Tempest, 262). Occasionally, when I've had cranial trauma and think t'n'b fighting will be a good idea in the gang-pick fest that is the MA, I'll take up a Hurri. You don't hear me complaining because everything else will invariably try to run if I latch onto their six. That is because not running in that situation would be S-T-U-P-I-D. Not brave, not (sports)manly, nor worthy of a <salute> and well-met, no, just plain old garden-variety idiotic. Although I find those who run away and come back to harass more than a couple of times, vexing. For Pete's sake, if you have to run twice, stay runned off. You go look for a target with less SA, and I'll go look for one stupid enough to turn with a Hurri.

[olskool2]

Being a bnz tard starts to look like an attractive option only after you realize how full the MA is of gang-pick tards and how little chance of finishing a "fair" fight you have.

Well, the point of BnZ is to make the fight unfair for your opponent, negating you of -any- fair fight anyway.

Occasionally, when I've had cranial trauma and think t'n'b fighting will be a good idea in the gang-pick fest that is the MA, I'll take up a Hurri. You don't hear me complaining because everything else will invariably try to run if I latch onto their six. That is because not running in that situation would be S-T-U-P-I-D. Not brave, not (sports)manly, nor worthy of a <salute> and well-met, no, just plain old garden-variety idiotic.

Idiotic and stupid? Losing my cartoon plane? Having fun? Confused.

[lyric1]

I decided to get in a few sorties this morning.  I ran into a all to common situation that honestly confuses me.

The set up...
There was a 109-K4 orbiting the base I took off from, I was in a Spit IX.  After several blown BNZ passes, I had equalized the E states, so he decides to run away.  Not wanting to waste time, I turned back to engage a P-38.  I dispatched him, and low and behold the K4 is back.  A few more blown passes, and he's gone again.  I take care of a 190, then land.

I re-up from a further back base to get alt on the K4 trying to give him some of his medicine.  No K4 to be found, so I start playing with a co-alt spit, and much to my surprise, the K4 is back, he blows a few passes again and extends, I go back to the spit only to have the K4 land a 30 on my wing. 

Pickers and runners, please help me understand what is the fascination with this style of game play.  Maybe it's a "your $15" thing, but what possible enjoyment can someone get from only engaging cons when they are already engaged and running from a 1v1 when you have an E advantage?  To me, 90% of the fun is the fight, not the winner.  I am so confused..

Your missing the point as to what makes this game so good. You never know what the other guy is going to do, it may frustrate the hell out of you that they wont fight in a manner you want. Now if the game was a set format that this plane will do this then do that what would be the point it would be very predictable & boring.

[BaldEagl]

A big part of the reason for this is, when you're in a Spit, single-mindedly committed to the turn-fight of ultimate doom, the only decision you really have to make is which enemy you are going to choose to  latch onto, everything else is your plane's innate turn-rate combined with your instinct, reflexes and muscle memory. When you fly a relatively poor turner you must continuously make a multitude of decisions in an ongoing effort to not get yourself backed into a corner, over-committed to one enemy, or so divorced from the engagement that you have no opportunity to get a gun solution (ie: those that egress 2 sectors after a high speed pass).

So, let me get this straight then.  In a Spit you don't have to continuously make a multitude of decisions in an ongoing effort to not get yourself backed into a corner, over-committed to one enemy, or so divorced from the engagement that you have no opportunity to get a gun solution?  And this is because you're single-mindedly committed to to one and only one con?

Get real.

[BaldEagl]

Why play an on-line multi-player sim, when all you do is run away when confronted with the very thing that the simulation was designed for, online air combat?  My desire is to understand the mental defect that thinks this style of play is fun.

I'll tell you what SCCA.  Next time we're both in the MA at the same time I'll up a Spit IX, you up a K-4.  We'll pick an out of the way area of the map and do a few one on one's with DA merge rules.  Sound like fun?

[BnZ]

Well, the point of BnZ is to make the fight unfair for your opponent, negating you of -any- fair fight anyway.

Idiotic and stupid? Losing my cartoon plane? Having fun? Confused.

When you have a much less maneuverable aircraft facing a better turner, an E advantage is exactly what makes the match-up remotely fair. As Zazen pointed out, a speedster with an E advantage meeting a turner 1v1, both being equal pilots, tends to end in stalemate, advantage to neither. In dogfighting, Pony vrs. a Spit is a total wash in favor of the Spit, EXCEPT for the speed advantage which allows the Pony greater ability to choose when he engages and disengages. Toss out the idea of disengaging and any trade of maneuverability for greater speed is pointless. Forget 190s, forget Mustangs, forget Jugs, etc, no reason to fly them. Heck, if you throw alot of Zeroes into the mix and don't allow bnz/energy tactics, you can pretty much write off Spits and Corsairs as well.

And yes, if you find a Hurri latched onto your long six Co-E in most airplanes, doing anything other than extending is an incredibly stupid waste of your cartoon airplane. What kind of masochist finds getting blown out of the sky, when avoidable, some kind of fun? You would GIVE a kill to some as a reward for flying what is an "easier" aircraft to dogfight, someone who likely only survived because you were having a bad-gunnery day? Seems kind of pointless to me. This is distinct from the situation where a Hurri or Spit is diving on your six with E, where you HAVE to try for an overshoot, and where the high-speeds give you a reasonable chance.

You can extend and come back of course, but having been on the other end of bnz'ing, I actually consider it less annoying if they head over the horizon than try to harass me to death. However, fly as you wish.

[Steve]

Since clearly your intelect isn't sufficient to comprehend the facts stated, let me simplify the entire point of this thread.

I love irony and you don't disappoint.  The irony?  You insult my intelligence yet you are not capable of correctly spelling intellect.      WTG, dolt.

[olskool2]

When you have a much less maneuverable aircraft facing a better turner, an E advantage is exactly what makes the match-up remotely fair. As Zazen pointed out, a speedster with an E advantage meeting a turner 1v1, both being equal pilots, tends to end in stalemate, advantage to neither. In dogfighting, Pony vrs. a Spit is a total wash in favor of the Spit, EXCEPT for the speed advantage which allows the Pony greater ability to choose when he engages and disengages. Toss out the idea of disengaging and any trade of maneuverability for greater speed is pointless. Forget 190s, forget Mustangs, forget Jugs, etc, no reason to fly them. Heck, if you throw alot of Zeroes into the mix and don't allow bnz/energy tactics, you can pretty much write off Spits and Corsairs as well.

And yes, if you find a Hurri latched onto your long six Co-E in most airplanes, doing anything other than extending is an incredibly stupid waste of your cartoon airplane. What kind of masochist finds getting blown out of the sky, when avoidable, some kind of fun? You would GIVE a kill to some as a reward for flying what is an "easier" aircraft to dogfight, someone who likely only survived because you were having a bad-gunnery day? Seems kind of pointless to me. This is distinct from the situation where a Hurri or Spit is diving on your six with E, where you HAVE to try for an overshoot, and where the high-speeds give you a reasonable chance.

You can extend and come back of course, but having been on the other end of bnz'ing, I actually consider it less annoying if they head over the horizon than try to harass me to death. However, fly as you wish.

There is a lot more to flying, both TnB and BnZ, than turning radius and potential energy. Just because you meet a spit co-alt in your Mustang doesn't mean you should automatically make haste to disengage just because he can turn tighter. There are many, many more ways to make use of your greater energy than diving. Just the same as there are many, many ways to shake a hurri, some of which include running, many of which do not.

No one is complaining about using energy tactics or BnZ, because they do offer the chance for the other pilot to fight back. Running away to 'reset' at the first threat is neither, it's just dweebing, which is what the real rant is about. Personally, I believe if you are high on your perch and let another plane equalize e-states, it's your own fault and you should fight your fight and die, learn, re-up and do better next time. Same as if you let a hurri set on your six, it's your own fault, give him a ride. You can still make him earn it. I don't see how you can 'waste' a cartoon plane. Or how it's 'masochist' to lose what doesn't exist or cause any pain/harm/injury.

And besides that, there's always the chance it's a newb that won't hit you anyway, why not give it a shot? You might die? 

[dhyran]

Almost as bad as no0bs who are parrots that repeat things heard like alt monkeys and running pony's

heheheheeee

read Erich Hartmann:

there are three golden rules which can't be discussed if you want to survive. I simply make these for myself by following the descriptions from Erich Hartmann which was the most successfull Combat Pilot in ww2 with 352 confirmed shotdowns.

Here are the simple 3 Rules i followed being in a 109 K4:

- when i didnt have an advantage i never went into a fight, i turned away, Coffeebreak!

- i planned my sorties to have all time the Option to Escape, Altitude, Speed etc. (All time coming in above the Cons let you keep smiling!)

- everytime i show Patiance!!! Never trying to make the Fast kill! I go for 100% Energy Fight. Pure Boom and Zoom is the preffered Attack Method! (I never let myself dragged down for a Low Level Fight)

 

Doing so and you might understand the Fun of being an alt monky, coming in a good wing formation with squad mates can be frustrating for opponents, thats the way it is, simply deadly, therefore you trained so long together, BnZ in drag ppl up, Your Wingman can simply 'pick' him out while he is hanging at the Prop. Its Fun! 
But when i am in the mood of TnB i take the Seafire and do some carrier oppps 

Whats wrong with it? 

[Steve]

As Zazen pointed out, a speedster with an E advantage meeting a turner 1v1, both being equal pilots, tends to end in stalemate, advantage to neither.

I respectfully disagree. I'm not trying to start a different argument but I maintain that a speedster w/ an E advantage is in the driver's seat vs. a comparable skilled turnfighter. I have put several good pilots in the tower with the E advantage. I'm making no claim at being better than them, I think my advantage made the difference. I can remember a fight w/ Levi back in the day when I had his spitty pinned and 1v1. Took me a little while  but I finally got him so bled out and on the deck that I got him. Levi is arguably the best spitty pilot in the game, no offense to Slappy and others.

W/ equal skill, the pilot that has the e advantage and takes care to maintain it will win more often, IMHO.  Even if he is just flying the very average P51D   

[Anaxogoras]

Since clearly your intelect isn't sufficient to comprehend the facts stated, let me simplify the entire point of this thread.

Why play an on-line multi-player sim, when all you do is run away when confronted with the very thing that the simulation was designed for, online air combat?  My desire is to understand the mental defect that thinks this style of play is fun.

It's not worth my time to chase a timid player across the map, it's just no fun.  I suspect he knew I was a better stick, and chose to wait till one of his "friends" caught my attention using them as a sacrificial lamb to better his personal score.  Honestly, when I see a player on the green side doing that, I don't help them.  

I think it was zazen who mentioned this was a historical tactic, but also mentioned, they only had one life unlike this game. If this game was to mimic real life, you would pay $15 for each life you loose.  Honestly, if it were like that, who would play?  How would that game play be? Think about it..

I'm curious.  When you're flying something like a 190D-9, or a P-51, there's a Spitfire16 latched onto your 6 1000 yards out, and you're both going 300mph on the deck, do you turn to fight him?  Granted you've already made a mistake to get into that situation, but once you're there...  Is that how the game is supposed to be played?  Make yourself a target because it's the manly thing to do?  It's fun to shoot pilots who make mistakes, but it's far more fun to shoot pilots who are difficult and challenging to kill.  What you're asking for seems to violate this basic principle of competitive gameplay.  Personally, I find it disappointing and boring when my opponents don't try hard not to die.

[Ack-Ack]

Or he's ranting on what he sees as nonsense, and is asking if anyone would show him what he's missing to make sense of the nonsense.

I for one would like to know what motivates these timid players.  Could one of you timid players please explain why you play a PvP centric game and refuse to fight?


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