P51D

[uptown]

yep! that's it 

[BnZ]

Bald: I have made it extremely clear in every post on this thread that I know there are many very skilled Pony sticks, for whom I have the utmost respect, so what are you trying to tell me exactly?

The 109G is a 7000 lb aircraft. The P51 is a, IIRC 10,000 to 12,000 pound aircraft.

 Um, number 1, there is a thing called wing-loading. That is why a ~12,000 lb aircraft called the F4U out-turns a ~9,000 lb aircraft called the Fw-190. Of course you know this. Number 2, a clean pony with full intenal fuel weighs a little bit over 10,000 lbs, according to the AHII E6B. You'd need ordinance to hit 12,000 lbs I think. That is with a full auxilliary tank, and standard procedure was to drain that tank first, before the drops. A Pony with the rear tank mostly drained (probably the heaviest condition one would normally fight in) weighs about 9,750 lbs. Doubtless, you know this as well. A P-51D has a wing area of 235 square feet. This yields a wingloading of 41.5 lbs/ft at that weight. A 109G6 (the most produced 109) weighs 6,806 lbs with a 75% fuel loading, and has a wing area of 173 square feet, yielding a wing-loading of 39.3 lbs/ft. A slight, not massive advantage to the 109. Notice I am being VERY generous to the 109 here by comparing them both at 75%, making the Mustang's greater fuel capacity a disadvantage. As a matter of fact, the Mustang can potentially outrange a 109 w/full internal with just 50% fuel.

And what do we make of the Jug-Mustang and Mustang-190 comparison? Both planes have a notably higher-wingloading, the Jug for is also inferior in power-loading, yet both will turn a smaller circle than the P-51. How do we explain this one away?

[BnZ]

Just as earlier we were confusing the existence of many extremely skilled AHII Pony sticks with the Pony being a brilliant AHII airplane, what this proves is that there were still some wily old hares around after the introduction of the P-51....

Exactly "unexperienced" I read enough stories how a lone 109 ace handled 3-4 P-51's with ease like nothing. Dogfights even had one about a 109 pilot, had to of been an ace, was keeping a half dozen p51's at bay on the deck. I wish i knew who was the ace they were talking about, I checked and couldn't find any leads to who was flying in the area they were talking about. Granted if you had 1000 combat missions in a P-51, I think luftwaffe would of been generally SCREWED - Lucky for the boys escorting those bombers, luftwaffe numbers dropped considerably.
However I give great credit to the P47 pilots as they were first to arrive and showing Jerry a lesson to what a JUG can do.

[Motherland]

yep! that's it 

That would mean it was most likely a JG11 pilot

Which would mean that chances are the pilot was not too \experienced since the majority of JG11 was completely rebuilt with new recruits just 6 months prior, unless it was one of the Staffelkapitaen's or Gruppenkommandeur's who were retained when the Geschwader was rebuilt... which is possible since Gunther Specht, Geschwaderkommandeur of JG11 at the time IIRC, who served from the beginning of the war (originally a 110 pilot), was killed in the battle.

Um, number 1, there is a thing called wing-loading. That is why a ~12,000 lb aircraft called the F4U out-turns a ~9,000 lb aircraft called the Fw-190. Of course you know this. Number 2, a clean pony with full intenal fuel weighs a little bit over 10,000 lbs, according to the AHII E6B. You'd need ordinance to hit 12,000 lbs I think. That is with a full auxilliary tank, and standard procedure was to drain that tank first, before the drops. A Pony with the rear tank mostly drained (probably the heaviest condition one would normally fight in) weighs about 9,750 lbs. Doubtless, you know this as well. A P-51D has a wing area of 235 square feet. This yields a wingloading of 41.5 lbs/ft at that weight. A 109G6 (the most produced 109) weighs 6,806 lbs with a 75% fuel loading, and has a wing area of 173 square feet, yielding a wing-loading of 39.3 lbs/ft. A slight, not massive advantage to the 109. Notice I am being VERY generous to the 109 here by comparing them both at 75%, making the Mustang's greater fuel capacity a disadvantage. As a matter of fact, the Mustang can potentially outrange a 109 w/full internal with just 50% fuel.

I am well aware that wing loading is what's important and weight alone means little. Nonetheless, the 109G has smaller wingloading than the Mustang, but also has a MUCH higher power to weight ratio, which also helps a lot with turn radius.

[BnZ]

Understand, I am not suggesting that a P-51 should make a smaller circle than a 109-F in a minimum speed Luftberry on the deck...

However, it should turn well enough to stay with late 109s at reasonable fighting airspeeds (over 220mph IAS). I've sat there and read hundreds of pilot reports the gist of which was a P-51 latching onto a 109, going around a few times, and shooting him. After awhile, it becomes hard to attribute it all to flukes and supposedly-incompetent German flying. (Too incompetent to pull the stick and go around in a circle?!?!?)

American pilots were apparently capable of recognizing what they could and could not turn with. Remeber the 90 degree rule with Jugs? Or the tactics used against the Japanese in the PTO? So many of them had the impression that the P-51 was actually more nimble than a 109...perhaps an exaggeration, but how could they have believed this if the 109's turning advantage was as massive as it is in AHII?

And the P-51 should certainly make a smaller circle than the Jug and Dora!

That would mean it was most likely a JG11 pilot

Which would mean that chances are the pilot was not too \experienced since the majority of JG11 was completely rebuilt with new recruits just 6 months prior, unless it was one of the Staffelkapitaen's or Gruppenkommandeur's who were retained when the Geschwader was rebuilt... which is possible since Gunther Specht, Geschwaderkommandeur of JG11 at the time IIRC, who served from the beginning of the war (originally a 110 pilot), was killed in the battle.
I am well aware that wing loading is what's important and weight alone means little. Nonetheless, the 109G has smaller wingloading than the Mustang, but also has a MUCH higher power to weight ratio, which also helps a lot with turn radius.

[Sunka]

Well no matter what you think of it ,it has to be one of the best looking rides out their 

[Motherland]

(Too incompetent to pull the stick and around in a circle?!?!?)

Umm... yes... again, 'Shooting down Spit 16's in a turnfight vs ponies and Ta152s....' You don't seem to realize how little training these pilots got. IIRC it was something like 8-12 hours flight time in the 109 before being shipped to the front.

[BnZ]

No one wins those fights in AHII by literally going around in in-plane circles with the much better turning airplane. Its usally done with some sort of pirouette/low yo-yo maneuver to get an angle. Often enough, combined with gratutitous E-mismanagement on the part of the opposition. Wherease there are many cases where the Mustang pilots report pulling lead and killing 109s in what are more or less Luftberrys.

Oh yes, an if the inexperienced Luftwaffe flyers were afraid to pull hard enough to deploy the leading edge slats, it might be because 1. They were not all Ah-nold, and could not haul the 109's heavy control column back at higher airspeeds as easily as the cartoon pile-it does, and 2, because sudden slats deployment on the 109 could potentially destablize a gun solution and even be abit dangerous. I have never yet had an uneven slat deployment in an AHII 109, no matter how brutally I mis-coordinated the ball and TRIED to generate one. 

Umm... yes... again, 'Shooting down Spit 16's in a turnfight vs ponies and Ta152s....' You don't seem to realize how little training these pilots got. IIRC it was something like 8-12 hours flight time in the 109 before being shipped to the front.

[Motherland]

No one wins those fights in AHII by literally going around in in-plane circles with the much better turning airplane. Its usally done with some sort of pirouette/low yo-yo maneuver to get an angle. Often enough, combined with gratutitous E-mismanagement on the part of the opposition. Wherease there are many cases where the Mustang pilots report pulling lead and killing 109s in what are more or less Luftberrys.

When I say 'I won a turnfight with a Spitfire Mk16', I mean he was on my six and I thought what the hell will it hurt and banked and yanked until the situation had reversed, NOT using yo-yo's and other vertical manuevers.

Oh yes, an if the inexperienced Luftwaffe flyers were afraid to pull hard enough to deploy the leading edge slats, it might be because 1. They were not all Ah-nold, and could not haul the 109's heavy control column back at higher airspeeds as easily as the cartoon pile-it does, and 2, because sudden slats deployment on the 109 could potentially destablize a gun solution and even be abit dangerous. I have never yet had an uneven slat deployment in an AHII 109, no matter how brutally I mis-coordinated the ball and TRIED to generate one. 

I've been screwed up by the slats several times in both the 109 and the 262.

[uptown]

Well no matter what you think of it ,it has to be one of the best looking rides out their 

 long as I look good..I'm happy!

[Steve]

K

[Steve]

The P-51D is quite possiby the easiest kill in the game if you have the E to run it down. (

*GIGGLE*

http://www.mediafire.com/?r1tupeym2n4

[uptown]

that looked easy enough

[Bruv119]

the p51d turning circle with flaps down has been mass debated.

it should turn a little better but I do just fine in it.

[angelsandair]

the p51d turning circle with flaps down has been mass debated.

it should turn a little better but I do just fine in it.

IMO, the P-51 is the most versatile plane in the game just behind the F4U.

P-51 turns pretty average, (may as well say it) it runs pretty good, dives well, and has a great armament.