Author Topic: Delta Airlines -fuel and Speculators  (Read 1257 times)

Offline BGBMAW

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2288
Delta Airlines -fuel and Speculators
« on: July 09, 2008, 07:07:43 PM »
   Well I just received thsi from Delta.....I heard Michael Savage say we shoudl flood our market with the Reserves and wipe out the speculators financially...

Im not sure if that will stop it ..or is it really just speculating that drives the price?...I was a bit suprised to get thsi from Delta

   
 AN OPEN LETTER
TO ALL AIRLINE CUSTOMERS
From 12 Airline CEOs.   
  Hello Mr. Wurth,   
  Our country is facing a possible sharp economic downturn because of skyrocketing oil and fuel prices, but by pulling together, we can all do something to help now.

For airlines, ultra-expensive fuel means thousands of lost jobs and severe reductions in air service to both large and small communities. To the broader economy, oil prices mean slower activity and widespread economic pain. This pain can be alleviated, and that is why we are taking the extraordinary step of writing this joint letter to our customers.

Since high oil prices are partly a response to normal market forces, the nation needs to focus on increased energy supplies and conservation. However, there is another side to this story because normal market forces are being dangerously amplified by poorly regulated market speculation.

Twenty years ago, 21 percent of oil contracts were purchased by speculators who trade oil on paper with no intention of ever taking delivery. Today, oil speculators purchase 66 percent of all oil futures contracts, and that reflects just the transactions that are known. Speculators buy up large amounts of oil and then sell it to each other again and again. A barrel of oil may trade 20-plus times before it is delivered and used; the price goes up with each trade and consumers pick up the final tab. Some market experts estimate that current prices reflect as much as $30 to $60 per barrel in unnecessary speculative costs.

Over seventy years ago, Congress established regulations to control excessive, largely unchecked market speculation and manipulation. However, over the past two decades, these regulatory limits have been weakened or removed. We believe that restoring and enforcing these limits, along with several other modest measures, will provide more disclosure, transparency and sound market oversight. Together, these reforms will help cool the over-heated oil market and permit the economy to prosper.

The nation needs to pull together to reform the oil markets and solve this growing problem.

We need your help. Get more information and contact Congress by visiting www.StopOilSpeculationNow.com.
 
     
Richard Anderson
CEO
Delta Air Lines, Inc.
   Gerard J. Arpey
Chairman, President and CEO
American Airlines, Inc.
 
   
   
Bill Ayer
Chairman, President and CEO
Alaska Airlines, Inc.
   Dave Barger
CEO
JetBlue Airways Corporation
 
   
   
Mark B. Dunkerley
President and CEO
Hawaiian Airlines, Inc.
   Robert Fornaro
Chairman, President and CEO
AirTran Airways
 
   
   
Timothy E. Hoeksema
Chairman, President and CEO
Midwest Airlines
   Lawrence W. Kellner
Chairman and CEO
Continental Airlines, Inc.
 
   
   
Gary Kelly
Chairman and CEO
Southwest Airlines Co.
   Douglas Parker
Chairman and CEO
US Airways Group, Inc.
 
   
   
Douglas M. Steenland
President and CEO
Northwest Airlines, Inc.
   Glenn F. Tilton
Chairman, President and CEO
United Airlines, Inc.
 


Delta Air Lines, Inc.
Delta Blvd.
P.O. Box 20706
Atlanta, GA 30320-6001
USA

This is a post only email. Please do not respond to this message. 
   
 
 
 
 

Offline BGBMAW

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2288
Re: Delta Airlines -fuel and Speculators
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2008, 07:10:48 PM »
ok..I thought i was in O club...I tried to delete post...where is that?..or can the Gods move it?

Offline Baitman

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 678
      • Strike Manufacturing Inc.
Re: Delta Airlines -fuel and Speculators
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2008, 09:14:33 PM »
I think that they are asking the government to control the price of oil. Isn't this moving away from the free market enterprise that our fathers, fathers fought for :O
"Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition"
You can be one but NOT both...

Fully Fledged Practising Atheist Bishop

Offline Wolfala

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4875
Re: Delta Airlines -fuel and Speculators
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2008, 09:38:43 PM »
Wow...

This is no toejam. ITs on their corporate websites.

http://www.airtran.com/sos/



the best cure for "wife ack" is to deploy chaff:    $...$$....$....$$$.....$ .....$$$.....$ ....$$

Offline DREDger

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 766
Re: Delta Airlines -fuel and Speculators
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2008, 10:28:08 PM »
I bot Delta stock 4 months ago on a 1 year low at approx $9.75.

I'm luvin it now, bouncing between 5-6

Offline CAP1

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 22287
      • The Axis Vs Allies Arena
Re: Delta Airlines -fuel and Speculators
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2008, 07:45:07 AM »
i didn't read the whole thing, but one thing to remember about the airlines..they don't have our best interest in mind. what you see them doing right now, they do with whoever or watever pisses them off.

 their usual target is general avaition. they spend sooo much money and time trying to convince the public that GA is the cause for all airline delays. i think the latest drive is to make GA pay user fees saying that they(the airlines) cannot afford to pay them. what they don't tell people thatr the airlines charge them for this.and will continue....
ingame 1LTCAP
80th FS "Headhunters"
S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning in a Bottle)

Offline lasersailor184

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8938
Re: Delta Airlines -fuel and Speculators
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2008, 07:51:20 AM »
It's not really government controlled pricing.  The government owns that stockpile of oil.  They can decide to sell it to whoever they want for whatever price.


And if the price undercuts the speculators by a decent amount, the effect will be two fold.  First, the refineries will have a new supply of cheap oil.  Second, the speculators will panic thinking they'll have millions of barrels of oil on their hands that they won't be able to get rid of.  So THEIR price will come down to match or beat the Government's price.

A lot of speculators would get burned.  When the government depletes its oil reserves, who knows if they'll go back to speculating.


It's an interesting idea.  I think the most effective thing to do with it would be to dump half the reserve into the economy, and keep the other half in reserve.  Do this so the threat of undercutting the speculators will always be present, keeping the prices low.
Punishr - N.D.M. Back in the air.
8.) Lasersailor 73 "Will lead the impending revolution from his keyboard"

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
Re: Delta Airlines -fuel and Speculators
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2008, 08:01:27 AM »
anything that makes speculating too risky to get into is a good thing.. I think finding huge off shore oil reserves and drilling in Alaska are even better tho.   Building some nuclear power plants would lower demand too.

How long can the speculators hold onto the oil without taking delivery?   that should  be the real regulation.   You should not be able to buy oil unless you have the proven facility to store it.

lazs

Offline Thruster

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 500
Re: Delta Airlines -fuel and Speculators
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2008, 08:32:21 AM »
I keep hearing about these "speculators" who are supposedly driving the prices through the roof. Who are they? Where is their stockpile? Are there really tank farms full of crude being held back from the market? Is there a consortium of traders squeezing both sides of the market preventing access to consumers ala The Hunt Bros.? Or could it be that producers have seized the opportunity to make the most of a diminishing supply at a time when demand has gone through the roof?

Offline lasersailor184

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8938
Re: Delta Airlines -fuel and Speculators
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2008, 09:40:31 AM »
It's both.  Speculators aren't actually buying barrels of oil.  They are buying the deeds to future sold barrels.


If the speculation was done by one man, it would be called "Cornering the Market."  They would buy up all the stock, and then if it truly is an inflexible commodity, they could sell it for whatever they want. 

I forget the term for when a group of people do it.  I think it starts with a C though.



As for the morality of it?  Most people are quibbling much like the Russians do.  The russians, especially in the later half of the Soviet Union absolutely despised any person who had a single ruple more to their name.  I've been seeing a lot of this lately in the US.  Forced guilt for business success.

Anyway, I would have done it if I had the capabilities to as well.
Punishr - N.D.M. Back in the air.
8.) Lasersailor 73 "Will lead the impending revolution from his keyboard"

Offline Saurdaukar

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8610
      • Army of Muppets
Re: Delta Airlines -fuel and Speculators
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2008, 11:12:19 AM »
I keep hearing about these "speculators" who are supposedly driving the prices through the roof. Who are they? Where is their stockpile? Are there really tank farms full of crude being held back from the market? Is there a consortium of traders squeezing both sides of the market preventing access to consumers ala The Hunt Bros.? Or could it be that producers have seized the opportunity to make the most of a diminishing supply at a time when demand has gone through the roof?

I'm reading some ideological staining into your post, but Ill try to respond without any sort of 'anti-bias.'

To do so, we need to start at the bottom of what you wrote.  The line regarding supply and demand.  The statement you authored is a sort of incomplete/incorrect hybrid assessment of market conditions.

Firstly, you have not identified 'supply.'  Supply of what?  "Oil?"  Light sweet crude?  Conventional or unconventional?  Extractable?  I am going to assume you mean "oil" and, more specifically, light sweet crude, which is the most desirable from a refining perspective, and which is used to make gasoline as part of the spectrum of all products that come from refining a barrel.

In that case, the supply of light sweet crude is diminishing, from under our feet, only in a technical sense because, for all intents and purposes, barring another million years of geological 'cooking,' its a finite resource.  That said, we're not exactly short on that resource.  There is no danger of running out any time soon and there is no problem extracting from current reserves or newly tapped reserves.  Realistically, buy time we "run out" of both conventional and unconventional oil, we'll probably be drilling Mars for the stuff so thats a non-issue.

Secondly, you cite demand.  Demand has increased, yes.  Its a steady progression.  The demand for petroleum products has increased systematically for decades.  Many people like to point to developing countries to support their argument for a lack of supply and demand equilibrium.  Unfortunately, its not like China (for example) simply turned on the "Industrial Revolution Switch" in the past 12 months.  They've been at this for 30 years.

Look at it this way.  In rough numbers, light sweet crude is about $135/barrel today and it was about $65-70/barrel a year ago.  Lets just call that a 100% increase in price.

For that price increase to be solely due to the dynamic between supply and demand, you would need a direct correlation.  Thats means that demand would have had to increase 100%, supply would need to have made a similar adjustment or each would have to move half-way in the wrong direction from the other.

None of those things occurred.

What has actually occurred is that, over the past twelve months, both supply and demand have increased by typical historical levels.  When Saudi Arabia says they wont increase production because there isn't a supply problem - they're right.  Although demand has increased "more" than supply, we are still producing more oil than we are consuming.

The sum of all that indicates that the price increase is a bubble, just like real estate was, for example.  The asinine price increase makes very little sense...

...until you look at the investing side of it.

"Speculators" are profit driven investors.  I know your comment was designed to be sarcastic, but there you are.

These investment funds (generic descriptor) are constantly looking to maintain portfolio stability and protect against loss by hedging.  What they seek is 'something' that can be driven upwards with purchase volume and can be manipulated into a steady increase in price.  A guaranteed return, in other words.  In recent history, the following 'somethings' have been used:

-Tech stocks.
-Financial stocks.
-Mortgage Back Securities.
-Real Estate

They all have a chronological progression in common.  They were manipulated with speculation to protect against losses elsewhere, fueled by buying frenzies and, ultimately, crashed when investors lost confidence and moved to something else.

The only difference between the above examples and light sweet crude is that light sweet crude hasnt crashed yet.  It will.

Look at real estate.  Five years ago, real estate was it.  Every middle aged, empty-nester mom got a realtor's license and every middle management father cashed in his mutual funds to play amateur land lord.

Know why?  The stock market wasn't doing very well.  Everyone was taking losses and needed to protect against them.  What better "something" to use than an investment which could be assured to realize capital appreciation of record levels?


Snowball begins rolling down hill...

"Speculation" is being thrown around in the media, REIT's pop up all across the country, out of nowhere, and every 20 year old kid is trying to start a purchase fund, promising investors a 30% ROI. 

Sounds good, say the banks - cant miss out on this!  Lets give people interest only loans at 100% LTV's because - hey - we know value is only going to go up and we need to keep this going!

What a great investment, say the foreign capital guys - lets buy some of those mortgage backed securities the banks are putting together and put liquidity into the market to drive activity!


...snowball gets bigger...


Suddenly a $180,000 home is on the market for $750,000, people are up to their eyeballs in debt they intend to pay with sales proceeds they cant realize, banks are taking losses on charge offs and foreign investors leave the market once they figures out that scrubbed down, poop-paper loans packaged as a pot luck security is a garbage investment.  Then the liquidity leaves the market, banks have no money to re-lend, "speculation" starts to go the other way, people cant sell their homes, give the keys to the bank and walk away and suddenly that $750,000 residence is listed for a more reasonable $350,000... that still no one will touch because its going to be worth $275,000 in another year.

Real estate is no longer adequate as a hedge.  People flock to a new "something" to mitigate their real estate investment losses.  All at once.  Confidence is zero.

They pick oil.

...snow ball crashes into wall.


Oil is driven up 100% in 12 months.  100%. 

There is no completely sterile supply and demand relationship on Earth which would result in such a meteoric increase in the price of a good short of an alien invasion fleet swooping down and sucking up all of the world's beer.

The market will correct itself.  It always does.  Legislation is NOT the answer.

Oil will fall when investor confidence gets shaky.  Once it reaches a critical mass, everyone will try to dump the commodity at once, crashing the market, and will go about looking for that next "something."

The indicators that this is already beginning are all over.  If I had to put my money where my mouth is, I'd guess oil stabilizes between $80-100/barrel within the next 18 months - with a strong probability of that dollar figure being a fairly significant over-estimation.

YMMV, but please dont spread end-of-days type oil predictions - especially not in the same post which sees you mock those suggesting "speculation" while "speculating," yourself.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2008, 11:14:02 AM by Saurdaukar »

Offline Nashwan

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1864
Re: Delta Airlines -fuel and Speculators
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2008, 11:27:04 AM »
Quote
Look at it this way.  In rough numbers, light sweet crude is about $135/barrel today and it was about $65-70/barrel a year ago.  Lets just call that a 100% increase in price.

For that price increase to be solely due to the dynamic between supply and demand, you would need a direct correlation.  Thats means that demand would have had to increase 100%, supply would need to have made a similar adjustment or each would have to move half-way in the wrong direction from the other.

It doesn't work like that.

The price has to rise until supply and demand are balanced.

Let's say supply is fixed, and demand rises 5%. We now have 5% too little oil. We have to reduce demand by 5%.

A 5% price rise doesn't reduce demand by 5%. The price has to rise until everyone cuts their use by 5%, people using 5% of oil stop using it altogether, or a combination of both.

That takes a much larger increase in price. In fact, even with oil at over $130 a barrel, the US hasn't reduced consumption by 5%.

Quote
What has actually occurred is that, over the past twelve months, both supply and demand have increased by typical historical levels.

No, over the last 12 months supply actually declined.

Quote
When Saudi Arabia says they wont increase production because there isn't a supply problem - they're right.  Although demand has increased "more" than supply, we are still producing more oil than we are consuming.

Not according to the industry analysts. The EIA says production was 84.55 million barrels a day in 2007, consumption was 85.38. Consumption slightly exceeded supply in 2006 as well.


Offline Thruster

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 500
Re: Delta Airlines -fuel and Speculators
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2008, 12:26:24 PM »
Saurdaukar,

Thoughtful post. But there's little sarcasm implied. To correct an earlier post, futures contracts are not "deeds" to anything. They are obligations. To compare them to equities (not options but real traded shares) is not appropriate. Nor is using R.E.I.T.'s, C.M.O.'s, or individual R.E transactions as a comparator.

One paragraph you wrote stands out as particularly remarkable:

"In that case, the supply of light sweet crude is diminishing, from under our feet, only in a technical sense because, for all intents and purposes, barring another million years of geological 'cooking,' its a finite resource. That said, we're not exactly short on that resource.  There is no danger of running out any time soon and there is no problem extracting from current reserves or newly tapped reserves.  Realistically, buy time we "run out" of both conventional and unconventional oil, we'll probably be drilling Mars for the stuff so thats a non-issue."

The fact that it may take a million (more like 20 million years I believe) to restore a resource we have the potential to burn through in a few generations is, technically, figuratively, or otherwise a real issue. Wringing the last drops from conventionally tapped out fields and spending the enormous sums required to find new reserves will do little or nothing to improve the overall supply/cost issue. We're using it up faster than dinosaurs are decaying, bottom line. Eventually there will be none left. If you feel that time is way off in the unforeseeable future, God bless ya.

The probability of going extra terrestrial for organic, life based compounds is just too silly for me to let slide.

Back to the point.

Futures markets are by definition a hedger's market. Historically speculators have been welcome as they tend to bring liquidity and stability to a market. The big players are almost always hedgers.

True, in the wake of meltdowns in other market based investment opportunities and with the advent of GLOBEX and online broker access there has probably been some swell in the legions of private speculators playing the futures game but I've not seen any evidence of that. From what I hear most brokers are begging for new equity.

The thing about futures transactions is that they are fundamentally derivative of actual spot markets. The actual cash price, plus cost of carry, expected supply/demand influences etc. create the anticipated value which is in theory what a futures contract is priced at. Actually taking delivery on a futures contract in my experience is just not done. That's what options are for.

The supply issue is another. We in fact do have a finite amount of easily acquired crude. Hence the call to open up new exploration and the development of new techniques to extract the last little bit of available reserves (see East Texas). I read a report some time ago that placed most current mid-east fields at a 20-30 year limit based on the consumption figures then available. Since demand has in fact gone up, and there is no real way to accurately predict either net supply or demand numbers, I figure there's even less time on the clock. If my nation's only viable asset were diminishing at ANY predictable level, I know I would be inclined to look for top dollar.

I remember when oil dipped below $8.00/bbl. half the people I knew were instantly out of work. And we all knew this day would come. Back then there was no real third world demand explosion and among other things, this country was going through a post oil shock downsizing in terms of energy consumption. The thought of retailing a ten cylinder pickup would have been inconceivable. The economy bounced back, so did 8 cylinder family cars, even more so with the advent of the SUV phenomenon. Not to mention bigger homes, more consumer goods, increased travel, yada yada.

In 25 years we have made very little progress in terms of really reducing our individual energy consumption, efficiencies in certain areas are better (mostly in commercial arenas where the net benefit is increased profitability to be enjoyed by a select few) but the alternative energy movement is nowhere near what we thought it would be 25 years ago. And to my knowledge we haven't built a new refinery in the U.S. in decades.

Of course that is not to say that futures markets are entirely efficient, they respond to rumor and news like any exchange, but usually big run ups are short lived if not based on some degree of fact. I don't have the kind of access to authoritatively speak on the real numbers. But I do know my markets and this current situation doesn't feel like a bubble. From what I can see it looks like a delayed reaction which makes much more sense to these tired eyes. It may be an over-reaction but mark my words, speculation is not the primary cause for these numbers.

Guys, Sorry for the wordy post. It's all Saurdaukar's fault.

Offline Saurdaukar

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8610
      • Army of Muppets
Re: Delta Airlines -fuel and Speculators
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2008, 01:37:33 PM »
So much for an overly simplified explanation.  ;)

I understand how the process actually works - my post, perhaps incorrectly - assumed that no one would be interested in actually reading anything other than black and white, cut and dry comparisons. 

Either way, you are correct that supply trailed in 2007, my mistake.  Different source, but I see 81,695M barrels/day in 2006 and 81,533M barrels/gay in 2007.  Whats even more interesting are the ten year trends.  With a single exception; 1998, every other year saw production slide in just under consumption - with 1999 being a knee-jerk reduction of some significance. 

Point is - the increase in cost doesnt make any sense - supply is not fixed and the percentage difference between production and consumption in 2007 isnt all that off from historical figures.  Production in 2007 was 95.67% of consumption.  In 2006, is was 98.14%.  In 2002, for purposes of comparison, back when petroleum products were still mighty cheap, production was 95.63% of consumption... a worse production/consumption ratio than we have right now... how come oil wasnt trading at $140/bbl then?

I'll respond tonight with more detail - busy afternoon.  ;)

Offline bustr

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12436
Re: Delta Airlines -fuel and Speculators
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2008, 06:18:05 PM »
How did Geroge Soros corner the comodities market on the British Pound?

Didn't he almost single handedly bankrupt England? It's funny how quiet Soros is being during this election cycle while he stuck his nose into all the cycles from 2000. Now we have this nobody Liberal out of nowhere with a shot at the White House along with a Dem controled congress. I don't think Hillary would take directions from Soros once she became Her Emperial Higness of the U.S. of A. She's not the type to share power.

So with Soros's billions and a few willing human proxies, can Soros as an individual create the current gas price problem by cornering the commodities market for crude? What better way to get a Liberal in the White House that will listen to him? Trash the economy and herd the littel people to vote Liberal by PAIN because Bush and the republicans can't remove that every day pain. High gas prices. It's so easy to manipulate most people once you get control of thier wallet.

How long would it take prices to fall once crude stopped being cornered? Can you imagin Obama's first speech where he declaires from the Mountain, "and I say gas prices will return to the days of free ranging SUV's and the land shall be healed and the minister Wright will be the first justice I place on the Supreme Court now that RuthieG has swooned and retired.....
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.