Center mounted, non-self-centering sticks and realistic control

[toonces3]

Hi all.
I'm posting this here rather than the controller forum because my thoughts are more with respect to realism and flying fluidly rather than anything specific regarding controller options.  I hope Skuzzy will leave this in general discussion.

There was a thread on another website about another sim that caught my attention.  The thread was about these new controllers that are center mounted with a long column/pole/whatever connecting them to the floor where the actual electronics that actuated the flight controls were located.  The controller in question had some sort of mechanism by which the controller would 'stay in position' rather than self center.

This whole idea is intriguing to me and got me to thinking about some of my own difficulties in smooth control in our sim airplanes.

In a 'real' aircraft, you move the control stick and the stick will remain in the position you left it...or rather it will move to a trimmed position.  I fly with the CH product stick, and when you release it, it will move to a centered position.  The discussion, from what I gathered, described this as a limitation that is required due to lack of positive feedback that you would get in a real plane. 

The thought is that flying with a stick that returns to the sim plane's 'trimmed' position rather than self-center provides for a more fluid experience.  I wonder if that might be part of my problem.  I fly alot with my squaddies and I have alot of trouble staying in formation sometimes.  I feel like subconsciously I fight the stick.  It's not something I actually notice but perhaps the lack of realistic response from my CH stick actually hampers my ability to fly fluidly.

Like I said, I'm less interested in debating the merits of any particular product as much as everyone's thoughts on the limitations created by our flight sim gear on realistic flying.  The more I get into this hobby, the more fascinated I become by how hard we can push to create a more realistic home flying environment.

Thoughts?

[Baitman]

I don't know how that would work without some sort of force feedback. I used to have a feed back joystick and the faster the plane was flying the tighter the stick became.
Yaw should always center to the trim position in AH we have combat trim so it should be there.
Pitch should always center to the trim position but the stick could tighten up at higher speeds.
Roll - depending on the aircraft or vehicle they will all be different. some depending on the model would be inherently stable or not.
I have been dreaming of this sort of set up but am limited to my laptop.
It would need force feedback to be really really nice.

I fly on the autopilot in formation all the time doing j or l key turns but a squaddie was hand flying 20 - 30 off me by hand turns out he was a formation instructor.

[WWhiskey]

i can see the pictures now, in the forum, and the text buffer during play, some p-51 goes tumbling out of control and the the text buffer reads   %$^&* i broke my freakin desk trying to pull out of that dive!!

[Captfish]

 
When I let go of my stick in in my 'real' airplane it returns to the center. I am talking about a Husky a-1b for the record. My planes with out joystick flight controls are the same, a commander 690b, Citation II. in flight if you let go of the controls they center, if you are sitting on the ground then usually the controls go limp, unless it is has balanced controls system like an extra 300. The only time they do not retun to center is if the plane is sitting on the ground.

[Baitman]

When I let go of my stick in in my 'real' airplane it returns to the center. I am talking about a Husky a-1b for the record. My planes with out joystick flight controls are the same, a commander 690b, Citation II. in flight if you let go of the controls they center, if you are sitting on the ground then usually the controls go limp, unless it is has balanced controls system like an extra 300. The only time they do not retun to center is if the plane is sitting on the ground.

Roger On most aircraft the stick, yoke, side controls will return to a trimmed state every time you let go of the controls. 

[CAP1]

When I let go of my stick in in my 'real' airplane it returns to the center. I am talking about a Husky a-1b for the record. My planes with out joystick flight controls are the same, a commander 690b, Citation II. in flight if you let go of the controls they center, if you are sitting on the ground then usually the controls go limp, unless it is has balanced controls system like an extra 300. The only time they do not retun to center is if the plane is sitting on the ground.

cessna 172 and 152 also do the same

[angelsandair]

What company makes the Joystick?

[CAP1]

Roger On most aircraft the stick, yoke, side controls will return to a trimmed state every time you let go of the controls. 

hadn't someone somewhere mentioned that HT had some time in a pony? perhaps he would be able to lend a bit of insight on this in a warbird?

[toonces3]

Returning to center and returning to trimmed flight are not the same thing.

Take your CH stick and move it to a left deflection.  Then release it- it snaps back to center.
Take your 'real plane' stick and move it to a left deflection in flight.  Then release it. It doesn't snap back, it settles back into position with some tension on it, provided you have your plane trimmed up.

The difference might be relatively subtle, but there is a difference.  The idea is that this difference makes a big difference in how fluidly you can control your sim airplane.

Having said that, there are folks in my squad who are both real pilots and also can 'hand fly' form a few yards off my 4 o'clock all FSO.  So it could be I'm just a crappy sim pilot! 

WRT force feedback.  I had a MS Force feedback Pro stick and I hated it.  I felt like I was constantly fighting the stick.  I'd be interested in trying that stick again in light of this new discussion.

[Krusty]

Might not work the way AH is coded right now. Right now, for example, the 109 elevator does not deflect downward as much as it does upward. This could be a problem at high speeds as you force the stick further and further forward. It will stay put, but the range of motion is still limited as compared to pulling BACK on the stick.

So AH would need to change some of the ways it works (IMO) if it wanted to go this route. Also, not many folks have a stick like this, and spring-centered sticks still flood the market.

[Charge]

When I built my own "floor stick" I still opted to center it with spring force, simply because in simulators there is no centering feedback as there would be in normal planes, so trying to find the center point while e.g. flying in formation could be a drag (+I could not visit the fridge for more beer). I also opted not to put too much spring force even if that would in most cases be better as it would limit the extensive use of gimbal limits and would probably be better for my flying, but using it every day would strain my hand too much as even now with lighter load I feel it in my back if I have had some more flight time than normal. But it is still somewhat lighter than, say, a standard HOTAS Cougar. The other option was to put small brakes in axis so every movement would require work and the stick would remain in position where I left it. I had no ideas how to do it though, so a couple of electric guitar tremolo springs was a nice, easy and enduring (and cheap) option when I decided to make it a self-centering one.

***

AFAIK many aircraft had a tendency to tighten the turn by themselves so they needed to be pushed back in a tight turn or they would flip. I've read of such behaviour with at least Yak-9 and FW190.

Im not sure if I'm correct with this but some WW2 aircraft were not stable in all their axis even in straight flight so they needed to be more or less "flown" all the time or they would try to go up or down or roll or yaw, not anything violent, but not straight either and some aircraft could be perfectly stable even after a spin the controls would center and the plane would want to go straight.

-C+

[Oldman22]

One issue here is the lack of airstream over the flight surfaces..During flight, this pressure is the sensory feedback.  What I'm working on is an oscillating fan that i put in front of my face, but controlled by my computer , to help me squeeze those few extra feet on my Hurricane stalls..

[dedalos]

Returning to center and returning to trimmed flight are not the same thing.

Take your CH stick and move it to a left deflection.  Then release it- it snaps back to center.
Take your 'real plane' stick and move it to a left deflection in flight.  Then release it. It doesn't snap back, it settles back into position with some tension on it, provided you have your plane trimmed up.

The difference might be relatively subtle, but there is a difference.  The idea is that this difference makes a big difference in how fluidly you can control your sim airplane.

Having said that, there are folks in my squad who are both real pilots and also can 'hand fly' form a few yards off my 4 o'clock all FSO.  So it could be I'm just a crappy sim pilot! 

WRT force feedback.  I had a MS Force feedback Pro stick and I hated it.  I felt like I was constantly fighting the stick.  I'd be interested in trying that stick again in light of this new discussion.

Dosen't combat trim account for that?  You don't have to fight the stick.  Even though it returns to center, it has returned into its trimmed position.

[RTHolmes]

assuming the air pressure data and control surface data is available for real force feedback, it wouldn't be too tricky to make a workable floor stick. the stick would have to be neutrally balanced with springs to be stable when offset, and the feedback applied to MR dampers (the oil viscosity varies with current.) pretty sure cannondale were using them in suspension forks years ago so the must be available smaller/cheaper now

that just leaves simulating Gs properly for the cartoon pilot ... still pondering that one 

[colmbo]

When I let go of my stick in in my 'real' airplane it returns to the center. I am talking about a Husky a-1b for the record. My planes with out joystick flight controls are the same, a commander 690b, Citation II. in flight if you let go of the controls they center, if you are sitting on the ground then usually the controls go limp, unless it is has balanced controls system like an extra 300. The only time they do not retun to center is if the plane is sitting on the ground.

It doesn't really return to center, it returns to the trimmed position.  If you trim for a redline dive the "center" will be forward, if trimmed for slowflight "center" will be aft.  Depending on the airplane the difference in those positions might be very slight.  On the Cessna 206 "center" in an 80mph IAS climb is well aft of "center" on the 180mph IAS descent, but if you pulse the stick it will return to the trimmed "center" in either case.