Has the definition of "pick" been skewed?(changed)

[humble]

a "pick" is when you kill an nme off of a friendlies behind, plain and simple.

and just Laugh if anyone tries to tell you different.

Thats an incomplete and potentiallty incorrect statement. A "pick" in the true sense is when somebody attacks a player who has successfully fought a 1 on 1 till it has reached its "end game" and both planes are low and at a reduced E state and there for vulnerable.

I'll give you a 1st hand example, we (71 SQDN) were flying a sweep and on egress I wandered over to check out a DAR "red square" and caught a P-51D on climb out. Now I was at 10k or so and he probably wasnt much over 3 or 4k. I swooped in and it was pretty clear I was dealing with a formidable pony driver. I put on some good moves (I'm in a D pony as well) and he put on some better counters and I was obviously chatting gleefully on squad vox that I had a good one going. Batfink came over as a good squaddie should and being of could character made sure i knew he was there. By this point I had to either go "all in" or extend. I made sure to let Batty know that 1) I wasnt gonna cut out and 2) not to pcik the guy since he would have a well deserved kill if he got me...

In the end I squeeked out a W (minus 2 guns he took out) and went home....now it would be perfectly fine to have a squaddie "save me" and to be honest I've been "picked" a 100 times by fellows in this particular guys squad. The flip side is he has also called his guys off before when he knew it was me to let a good fight finish.

Personally I think alot of guys use "pick" as an excuse for bad SA or feel that they should be allowed to use an advantage without impunity. 90% of these "good one on ones" are nothing other then a guy with alt & E getting picked off a plane on the defensive IMO.

[ink]

Thats an incomplete and potentiallty incorrect statement. A "pick" in the true sense is when somebody attacks a player who has successfully fought a 1 on 1 till it has reached its "end game" and both planes are low and at a reduced E state and there for vulnerable.

I'll give you a 1st hand example, we (71 SQDN) were flying a sweep and on egress I wandered over to check out a DAR "red square" and caught a P-51D on climb out. Now I was at 10k or so and he probably wasnt much over 3 or 4k. I swooped in and it was pretty clear I was dealing with a formidable pony driver. I put on some good moves (I'm in a D pony as well) and he put on some better counters and I was obviously chatting gleefully on squad vox that I had a good one going. Batfink came over as a good squaddie should and being of could character made sure i knew he was there. By this point I had to either go "all in" or extend. I made sure to let Batty know that 1) I wasnt gonna cut out and 2) not to pcik the guy since he would have a well deserved kill if he got me...

In the end I squeeked out a W (minus 2 guns he took out) and went home....now it would be perfectly fine to have a squaddie "save me" and to be honest I've been "picked" a 100 times by fellows in this particular guys squad. The flip side is he has also called his guys off before when he knew it was me to let a good fight finish.

Personally I think alot of guys use "pick" as an excuse for bad SA or feel that they should be allowed to use an advantage without impunity. 90% of these "good one on ones" are nothing other then a guy with alt & E getting picked off a plane on the defensive IMO.

you just wanna argue with me humble.

the point is a pick is killing someone on someone else's 6,  does not matter what condition they are in.

does not even have to be a friendly, I pick 1 red guy off another red guy, still a pick.

any time i get picked (allot) it is my fault and only my Fault. 

[SlapShot]

A "pick" in the true sense is when somebody attacks a player who has successfully fought a 1 on 1 till it has reached its "end game" and both planes are low and at a reduced E state and there for vulnerable.

You have a point there ... but a "pick" is garnering a kill while the opponent ... is vulnerable ... due to it's engagement/fight with another plane.

I have had plenty of guys "pick" my prey while engaged and usually when I have or just get the upper hand ... and then I ask them on Vox ... "So ... what made you really think that I needed you help while I am on the guys 6 0'clock ?" ... they weren't there to help me ... they saw an easy kill as a result of my hard work.

Also, IMHO SA has nothing to do with whether it was a "pick" or not ... SA may delay/defeat a "pick", but depending upon the circumstances, if your still engaged, the picker will get you.

Leviathn probably has the best SA that I have ever seen, and even he can't deny the "pick" under all circumstances.

There are times when you can't let go of your initial engagement because if you do, he will probably kill you quicker than the guy trying to pick you. In these circumstances, I hope that the evasives that my opponent is making, and me following, will also spoil the picker until I can dispatch my original opponent.

[SlapShot]

you just wanna argue with me humble.

the point is a pick is killing someone on someone else's 6,  does not matter what condition they are in.

Well I have "picked" guys off my squaddies, and the opponent was not anywhere near a 6 o'clock solution. Not trying to bust your you-know-whats here, but 6 o'clock is not a prerequisite.

[Zazen13]

Here's some definitions that might help:

1) Bounce - Attacking with an altitude advantage a plane that is not already engaged with another.

2) Cherry Pick - Attacking an enemy who is already engaged with another.

3) Clearing Your Wingman's 6 - Attacking an enemy who is already engaged with another.

4) Drag n' Bag - Tactic whereby a friendly drags 1 or several enemy laterally for a friendly to destroy while they are "engaged" with him.

5) Vertical Drag n' Bag (aka Rope) - Tactic whereby a friendly pulls 1 or more enemy up vertically to slow them down, hanging them there for a friendly to destroy while they are "engaged" with him.

6)Cross Drag - Tactic whereby a friendly with a single pursuer turns him perpendicular to your flight path to allow you to close more quickly and provide a higher profile shot on the enemy "engaged" with him.

So, #1 is not a cherry pick, that's a pure BnZ in the classic sense. Some seem to think if they get bushwhacked and didn't see it coming that's a cherry-pick but it's not. If they were not otherwise engaged it's just getting bounced.

That leaves #2-6, all cherry-picks or variations thereof. Coincidentally, they are all fundamental tactics of air combat and cooperative wingman tactics. There's hardly more fun to be had in the game than flying in a complex engagement with some folks that can recognize, execute and exploit #3-6. In fact, there's a name for those that can't recognize, execute and exploit #3-6, "clueless noobs". Personally, I don't care to fly with people who consider themsleves above cherry-picking, because in a complex engagement people averse to setting people up, recognizing setups, exploiting setups and clearing your 6 are not worth a pinch of owl poop.

[toonces3]

How about this?

A week or two ago I got engaged heavily with a P-38 while I was flying a K-4.  There were no other cons around, friendly or enemy.  

We got pretty wrapped up, both of us swirling all over and dropping to the deck.  At some point a friendly con showed up and I called him off and I have no idea what happened to him...he died or left or something.

Soon both me and the 38 are bled of E, flaps out on the deck.  I see red dots coming, but this fight is too good to stop.  I get a tater into the guy and he does down.  I level and check 6 and I see a higher P-51 coming down hard.  I have no E to do much so I try a feeble left break as low as I can hoping I can ride out a few 50 cals.  Of course this guy has awesome aim and he clips off a wing and I go down.

The guy who shot me down had a handle that rhymes with "Steev".  I almost typed out, "Nice pick 'Steev' " on 200, because to me, that was a pick.  But then I thought about it, and frankly, I would have done the exact same thing except I wouldn't have hit the guy with my 50 cals.

So, ultimately, I think I'm ok with picks, but I guess I've never been totally clear on what constitutes a "pick", and what constitutes shooting down some clown that was stupid enough to blow all his E in a combat environment.

[ink]

Well I have "picked" guys off my squaddies, and the opponent was not anywhere near a 6 o'clock solution. Not trying to bust your you-know-whats here, but 6 o'clock is not a prerequisite.

 you are correct i should have said engaged with someone else.

[Ghosth]

Almost always what is "flying in a horde" and "Cherry picking" to one side is flying with wingman tactics and smart flying on the other side.  Perspective makes a huge difference. 

[ink]

so whats it called when you get attacked by 7 nme cons and kill them all?

Noob hourde?

[Zazen13]

Almost always what is "flying in a horde" and "Cherry picking" to one side is flying with wingman tactics and smart flying on the other side.  Perspective makes a huge difference. 

Yup, precisely, it would never occur to me to chastize someone because they saddled up on me as I went to guns on their buddy. In fact, I would consider them rediculously remiss in their duty if they did not attempt to do so. Conversely, if I were knee deep in a Spixteen, completely defensive, I would curse the offspring of the friendly that did not swoop down and cherry-pick him off me (clear my 6).

[SlapShot]

Here's some definitions that might help:

1) Bounce - Attacking with an altitude advantage a plane that is not already engaged with another.

2) Cherry Pick - Attacking an enemy who is already engaged with another.

3) Clearing Your Wingman's 6 - Attacking an enemy who is already engaged with another.

4) Drag n' Bag - Tactic whereby a friendly drags 1 or several enemy laterally for a friendly to destroy while they are "engaged" with him.

5) Vertical Drag n' Bag (aka Rope) - Tactic whereby a friendly pulls 1 or more enemy up vertically to slow them down, hanging them there for a friendly to destroy while they are "engaged" with him.

6)Cross Drag - Tactic whereby a friendly with a single pursuer turns him perpendicular to your flight path to allow you to close more quickly and provide a higher profile shot on the enemy "engaged" with him.

So, #1 is not a cherry pick, that's a pure BnZ in the classic sense. Some seem to think if they get bushwhacked and didn't see it coming that's a cherry-pick but it's not. If they were not otherwise engaged it's just getting bounced.

That leaves #2-6, all cherry-picks or variations thereof. Coincidentally, they are all fundamental tactics of air combat and cooperative wingman tactics. There's hardly more fun to be had in the game than flying in a complex engagement with some folks that can recognize, execute and exploit #3-6. In fact, there's a name for those that can't recognize, execute and exploit #3-6, "clueless noobs". Personally, I don't care to fly with people who consider themsleves above cherry-picking, because in a complex engagement people averse to setting people up, recognizing setups, exploiting setups and clearing your 6 are not worth a pinch of owl poop.

Nope ... only #3 qualifies.

All the others are wingman tactics, and if people are truly flying wingman tactics ... god bless 'em ... else it's a "pick".

[SlapShot]

Yup, precisely, it would never occur to me to chastize someone because they saddled up on me as I went to guns on their buddy. In fact, I would consider them rediculously remiss in their duty if they did not attempt to do so. Conversely, if I were knee deep in a Spixteen, completely defensive, I would curse the offspring of the friendly that did not swoop down and cherry-pick him off me (clear my 6).

Remember ... if it's me above you, you must first scream like a little school girl before I will drop in ... 

But then again, I highly doubt that I will ever be ABOVE you ...

[ink]

reading these forums today is really driving me nuts  

i cant wait to get back in the AH skies

so i can release some pent up Rage.

[humble]

you just wanna argue with me humble.

the point is a pick is killing someone on someone else's 6,  does not matter what condition they are in.

does not even have to be a friendly, I pick 1 red guy off another red guy, still a pick.

any time i get picked (allot) it is my fault and only my Fault. 

hehe:)

Actually I'm just trying to clarify a pick (and as slapshot mentioned its often the prey that gets picked) in the true sense vs someone who expects some sort of immunity to attack by virtue of having a positional advantage vs a single plane. We've all seen the guy who comes in with a 5 or even 10k alt advantage and immediately vulches the field or attacks a plane taking off and then inevitiably gets swarmed under by the 4 or 5 planes he ignored on the way in...and then comes back with some comment along the lines of....

"Gee nice 6 on 1, all you guys and do is gangbang"....

Duh...

[SlapShot]

hehe:)

Actually I'm just trying to clarify a pick (and as slapshot mentioned its often the prey that gets picked) in the true sense vs someone who expects some sort of immunity to attack by virtue of having a positional advantage vs a single plane. We've all seen the guy who comes in with a 5 or even 10k alt advantage and immediately vulches the field or attacks a plane taking off and then inevitiably gets swarmed under by the 4 or 5 planes he ignored on the way in...and then comes back with some comment along the lines of....

"Gee nice 6 on 1, all you guys and do is gangbang"....

Duh...

That's another phenomenon that amazes me too ...

Here is another one ... your climbing out from the base, all by your lonesome, and you see a con coming in with a nice alt avantage over you. You say to yourself ... YES !!! this is going to be a good one ... you adjust yourself in the chair ... slap yourself in the face ... ready to rock and roll.

He passes by you like you weren't even there and heads to the base ... huh ? He dives in and manages to take out 1 ack gun before he either augers or the ack rips him to shreds. I turn back around and shake my head as I begin to climb out again.