Things that make you wonder.

[Maniac]

Over in WB HS says that the latest damage/gunnery model is realistic. . .

In AH Pyro/HT says that the gunnery/damage model is realistic. . .

Now if we compare the to sims :

WB : kills above d0.8 are impossible

AH : kills above d0.8 are common

Who is right & who is an lier    

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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-

   
   
http://www.rsaf.org/osf/

[This message has been edited by Maniac (edited 03-17-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Maniac (edited 03-17-2000).]

[funked]

Well I have criticized the gunnery model here plenty.  But I can't say kills beyond 800 yards are common at all for me.  Maybe it's because I am in an RAF squadron (Spitfire has small ammo load) or maybe it's because I can't shoot.  But anything outside of 500 yards is very rare for me.

However, kills beyond 800 yards were definitely possible (if rare) in real life.  So a sim that makes these impossible is missing something.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 03-17-2000).]

[leonid]

I recently saw a website where two USA pilots of WWII recalled getting kills at ranges of a mile, or so, with .50 mgs.  Recorded kills.  So, its possible, just not probable.

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leonid, Komandir
5 GIAP VVS RKKA

"Our cause is just.  The enemy will be crushed.  Victory will be ours."

[Ripsnort]

In addition to what Lenoid  said: HT also pointed out that the avg. Online simmer has about 4 times more flying time than actual WW2 vets, so, the possibility of getting kills at that range increase with skill.

I believe if everything was  exactly as  history had it, we'd all still squeak about this or that      Its in our nature.

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Ripsnort(-rip1-)
++JG2++ ~Richthofen~ XO
Aces High Training Corps
JG2 "Richthofen"
 
"Some people are only alive because it is illegal to shoot them."

[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 03-17-2000).]

[Vermillion]

Maniac, I gotta agree with Funked here. While I have seen an occasional hit at 800 (mostly on bombers), I would hardly say such hits are common. And I would never say that kills are common above 800 yards.

The last time this came up, Pyro challenged anyone to produce films showing consistent kills at long range, such as those you and RAM are talking about in the other thread.

The only person that could post film of even getting hits (and they were minor) at 1k or above was RWY, and that was against a non manuevering target if I remember correctly. And RWY is an excellent pilot, we flew together for many years in a squadron together, I know he is definitely above average.

Personally, I can't hit with MG's above 500 yards and Cannons above 400. But then again I am a poor shot.

So here is my challenge to you   Produce some film (it can be anyone flying) showing how long range kills, against a target that is trying to defend itself, are so easy.

Until you do though, I think you will have a tough time getting the crowd here behind you.


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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Desperately trying to figure out why Kamikaze Pilots wore helmets"

[Minotaur]

From the information I have read, the 50cal had an effective range of 1000yds.  When the aspect angle is low and the closure is high this effective range could be 1500yds.  This is regarding aircraft vs aircraft.

This has nothing to do with being able to hit anything at 1000-1500yds, especially when the gun and the target are move moving three dimensionally.

IMO the WB ballistic model is tweaked for game plane if what you say is correct.  But, AH utilizes a zoom feature, that improves gunnery at all ranges.  This zoom feature might be the factor you are looking at here.

Personally; I don't care which is correct,  because in the end it boils down to what you are used to and what you prefer.

BTW, from my experience 800yd kills being common for AH is a pretty good overstatement.

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Mino
The Wrecking Crew

[Dinger]

At what alt do you think most AH 800-yard kills occur?  And would there be IRL effects that might make it difficult, such as choppy air bouncing the plane around?

[ra]

Not only do we have more virtual aircombat time than a real life pilot, we have MUCH more virtual air gunnery time.  I'll bet most WWII fighter pilots had little or no air-air target practice prior to their first engagement with an enemy plane.  So if gunnery were modeled realistically, it would make sense that our results would exceed real-life results, just from the fact that we've fired bajillions of virtual rounds from every conceivable firing solution, whereas real combat pilots may have only fired a few hundred practice rounds using a few simple firing solutions.  

It would be a neat experiment to take a total combat sim newbie and have him keep track of his gunnery as he gains experience.  I'll bet in his first couple months of play he never gets a kill over d4.

ra

[funked]

Ra, I've had some trainees get 500 yd plus kills on their first mission.

If you spray and pray enough you will get some hits with the current beer keg bullet diameter...


[This message has been edited by funked (edited 03-18-2000).]

[Dnil]

Plus radar ranging doesnt help, nice fat HUD images with highly accurate radar ranges.  Real easy to tell the distance and closure.  Strap the God radar on a WWII fighter back then and guys would be hosing and d20.

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Dnil
902nd Immortal Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer

[ra]

Funked, are you sure about bullet diameter?  I haven't heard that oversized bullets are modeled here like they were in WB.  

Gun barrels would lose their rifling if fired for long bursts.  Maybe HTC could model this by drastically increasing dispersion for guns which have been worn out by spray and pray.

[funked]

I'm not certain Ra, I need to do some more experiments.  

[skeet]

ra "I'll bet most WWII fighter pilots had
little or no air-air target practice prior to their first engagement with an enemy plane. "
There's truth in this: as far as RAF goes there were gunnery schools, but I don't know the value of the teaching. For example, I've just had converted some old 16mm B&W camera-gun film from my  father's SpitVII when he was at gunnery school - practice attacks on bombers flying straight and level. Without getting his log book I can't tell you whether this was before his first operational posting or during a break. I also remember some of his other film I saw as a kid where he and an instructor went up way high and then the instructor peeled off and he just had to chase him and 'shoot' at him. Inevitably ended up at nought feet. Said it was the best thing he'd ever done - totally exhilarating. Value in terms of teaching? Going to vary hugely with the instructor, how often you do it, the debrief .... etc. I assume this was formal teaching, not just the instructor's good idea.

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skeet - out
Aces High - Fight Stimulator

[wolf37]

i beleive if this was as real could be, or if we where flying the real planes in WWII, we would all be dead, hell, i would have been dead first time i tried to take off, i was really bad at it for a while, glad its only a game.

[Wraith]

Just aim 1 centimeter above the target when target is 850 ft -> 1.2 k (using ZOOM option)

.50's and 20MM cannons on me 38 hit GOOD at that distance.

Errr.. against non-manouvering targets in my same alt of course (read: BUFFS)