Can we call it yet?

[Damionte]

Current rules have put a stranglehold on playability in the AvA.

There's no one online so neither side can launch. Allies can't even do re-supply anymore. We've resupplied the hell out of everything. Except for one city (Which I've been told we can't resupply anyway) everything is back to 100%.

Can't we call this one early and just start getting ready for the next evolution?

[Chemdawg]

I'm going to have to agree whole heartedly here, as well as ask for some kind of retooling of the rules. I believe that everyone here will abide by them because I have seen first hand, since I have been on leave I seem to spend an enormous amount of time in there. Any how, I believe that because people wish to obey the rules, this explains why no one is ever in there except for a few hours out of the 24 hours a day. A few can be defined as small as 3 and as many 8, depending on which part of the country your from   

Just a thought here...

Maybe we could expand Rule 6 to include the limited destruction of only strategic targets or even a certain type of strategic target.

or.....

It seems that the Axis are less interested in the main goal of this tour. The only reason I assume this is because of the lack of damage recieved on our strats. I think its a possibility that we might want to restructure the parameters of the upcoming tours to avoid this type of setup. And by type, I mean pure destruction of strategical assets. Even though it was complained about even then, maybe an element of base capture....


Base Capture:

1.) Brings oppurtunity for the GV'ers
2.) Allows for Dogfighting
3.) Leaves room for Bomber Boys


The overall welfare of the AvA depends on our ability to bring fresh blood in here. I believe a way to do that is to give oppurtunity to everyone that wants it.

[Anaxogoras]

It seems that the Axis are less interested in the main goal of this tour. The only reason I assume this is because of the lack of damage recieved on our strats.

I think the axis disinterest in bombing goes much further than this particular tour.  So far as I know, there are no axis bomber squadrons.  If they exist, I apologize for getting it wrong, but I've never seen more than a single vic of JU88s in the ava arena.  The 234 is an interesting aircraft, but making a perfect drop on a strat I wasn't even able to take it down by 10%.  With JU88s I was able to take down a strat by nearly 30%, so the capability is there, but not the desire.

Part of the reason for the lack of interest is the near defenselessness of the JU88.  Maybe the addition of the JU188 or HE177 would motivate an interest because these bombers were equipped with a heavier defensive armament.

[Chemdawg]

That really does make sense. I never thought about it that way. If you had a bomber you could at least hap hazzardly defend yourself, then it might make a difference in the gameplay. Anyhow...these are good thoughts for the staff. I'm not sure how feasable it would be to introduce a new model into the repotoire but its definatley something the staff should think about if this is truely the wave of the future.

[OldBull]

Well Guys it is Sat afternoon 5;30 CST and the arena is empty and again I am moved to ask the rhetorical question? Who will be the first to log on? Restrictive rules about this have created an empty arena. While there are those of us who would log on and get the ball rolling we are restricted from doing that and the rest of the flying population have no intrest in logging into an empty arena. If we have learned anything from this I hope that we have come to the conclusion that some general guideline be established and after that let it happen.  An abundance of tedious and restrictive rules have created an empty arena.
Maj OldBull
 XO Avengers

[Chilli]

Gavagai,

In the past AvA setups have used substitute aircraft to simulate those missing in the AHII arsenal.  I love the speed and defensive capacity of the Ki67.  Does it have any simularities to either of the aircraft that you mentioned?  Are there any other bombers (allied included) that could be skinned and give a reasonable substitution for historical sakes? 

I am very interested in gathering like minded map builders, and graphic skinners for the AvA purposes.  If interested please PM me here.

[Motherland]

In the past AvA setups have used substitute aircraft to simulate those missing in the AHII arsenal.  I love the speed and defensive capacity of the Ki67.  Does it have any simularities to either of the aircraft that you mentioned?  Are there any other bombers (allied included) that could be skinned and give a reasonable substitution for historical sakes? 

The Ki67 is more lightly armed (IIRC) and carries a much lighter bombload than any of the bombers Gavagai mentioned.

[Chilli]

Okay, with the given planeset could Lancasters be skinned to resemble anything acceptable?

[Motherland]

No.

[Shifty]

One solution that was used in the past... I don't remember if we did it here or in the old Warbirds Historic Arena was let the Axis use the B-17 model for a P.108 substitue.
Here's a link on the Itailian P.108 This would give the Axis a heavy bomber for these wars and might pump some bloood into the thing.

http://kits.kitreview.com/p108bserieireviewbg_1.htm

I'm not a bomber guy, maybe Oldbull or one of the Avengers might know more about the P.108

I think Oldbull is pretty much spot on, we have restricted ourselves into an empty arena. The BOA was a great idea, but like anything else until you try it many of the bugs or drawbacks are hidden from view. The conditions of victory and the limitations of play didn't really hurt this scenario until the third frame. It just got stale for many, not everyone by any means but many. I'm thinking TheBug is on to a great idea with his campaign series.

[captain1ma]

maybe im over stepping my bounds, but maybe you should give axis atleast lancasters. just a thought

[Damionte]

The B17 is closest to that P109.

The B24 and Lancaster carry too large a load to approximate it. Even that is generous considering they only even built 2 dozen of those bombers. Still if HT is ever looking for the next bomber sto put in the game the P109 should be it. Gives the axis a 4 engined bomber and a transport of their own.

[Shifty]

The B17 is closest to that P109.
 Even that is generous considering they only even built 2 dozen of those bombers.

This is true Drack, but the nature of the War scenarios we've been running are hardly historic setups.
If people want a War Game especially a Strategic War Game based on the victory parameters we've been using, you're forced to get creative.

Germany's strategic war weapon was the U Boat. Even the Battle of Britain wasn't a strategic bombing campaign. It was an aerial campaign softening up defenses prior to invading.
The USAAF and the RAF were really the only ones to carry out  strategic bombing campaigns. So it's going to be hard to reproduce one where both sides have a chance without substitutes of some kind.
Unless of course you're going to make it The Allied bomb and the Axis defend as it was historically.
<S>

[Chemdawg]

The P.108 is very close in armament, payload and performance with the B17 (Thanks to the website reference by Shifty). The 108 actually carried 1700 pounds in tonnage over the B17. I havn't reserched the Lancs or other possibles yet.
-----------
Lancasters carried some 14,000 pounds of iron and aren't very well armed. Only 6 guns.

------------
The B24 seems to be the closest in likeness to the P.108. Carries 8,000 pounds in ords and 10 MGs for defense.

[flatiron1]

This is axis vs allies I say no to mixing up the planes. It's bad enough they have to use our c47. Now that they have the whiblewind they don't have to use our m16 but to me it clearly outclasses the m16 so I want access to it for the allies.  Since allies don't have a jet fighter should the allies be given access.


Where does it stop.