Author Topic: So about that milking issue  (Read 1769 times)

Offline Oldman731

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So about that milking issue
« on: July 12, 2008, 09:57:30 PM »
The War setups have been running since January 2008.  For the first four months (at least) of that time one of the chief complaints that I heard was about the off-hours milking.  In response to this fairly constant criticism, we have the now-famous Rule Six.

Recently there have been complaints from the other end of the spectrum, along the lines of "now people are afraid to go in if there's no one there."

So it seems to me that this is a good time to start discussing the matter again, now that we have a more complete experience.  Unless I'm missing something big, it boils down to this:  Are you willing to accept the milking casualties in exchange for relaxation of the anti-milking rules?

So what do youse guys think?

- oldman

Offline Hamltnblue

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Re: So about that milking issue
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2008, 11:09:10 PM »
I think that and the budget idea has failed. If the CO of either side selects a bad setup the whole scenario goes down in flames.  I haven't flown there much recently because I'm sick of having only one or 2 aircraft available.  At the same time each field seems to have different planes available.  I've actually been going into the MA or not flying at all.  Squads that try to fly a particular aircraft (353rd prefer the P51 and 47 for instance) sometimes don't get the chance to do so.  So what's the point?  Why not allow squads to submit their preferred aircraft like in the FSO and if the scenario allows, let them fly them?  I would also restrict the AvA to set times and days.  May 3 or 4 days a week for a  set 4 hours during the week and higher during the weekend.  Just throwing ideas out but the current Titanic is sinking in my opinion.
We do appreciate the AvA staff's work holding it together.  :salute

Offline Chilli

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Re: So about that milking issue
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2008, 01:27:04 AM »
I think that it is about time to relax period. :D  I say give off peak hours players a neutral area (country) to pork away without endangering the premature map reset. 

Well summed up Hamltnblue.  I think when we force too many limitations at once we exclude those that we do not intend to. 

Offline Damionte

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Re: So about that milking issue
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2008, 05:50:09 AM »
Rule 6 hasn't killed the arena all by itself. Was really just the last straw that broke the camels back.

The war scoring system + the economy + field and plane placement + milk running complaints + player interest in furballing vs warfighting + no casual play.

All together = an empty arena.

Scoring:
I still agree that the war set up is the way to go. But until all aspects of play directly contribute to the final tally there's no point in doing the was set up. Furballers kills need to count against the score.

The score doesn't need to effect the economy. Rather than lowering the economy from week to week, just tally up victory points each round. 

Economy + Field & Plane Placement:
No one is happy with this aspect. It is obvious now that peoples interests are flying the planes they want to fly. The war is secondary. In order to fly what they want to fly, and not have to burn an extra half an hour flying from rear bases the players have spoken. They'd rather just go to the other arena's.

Using the same spending model we have now I suggest this change. Increase the current funds. Anywhere from 50% to 100%. We need to be able to fly more types of planes from more places. In addition each choice now populates 3 fields. So for the same price that you put down 1 BF-109K-4 before. You now put down 3 BF-109K-4 at different bases.

Another idea is to have all planes available to a side, available at all fields. Or at all fields they purchase. (Requires splitting up the funds into categories, or setting a price for air fields/vehicle fields/naval yards, an adding them to the list.)

These should help increase the casual play aspect of the arena. If playing in the arena is a hassle or too much of an inconvenience the players will go elsewhere. You can't plan it out completely like a scenario in the way the FSO runs. People don't have time to play something like the FSO every night.

Milkrunning Issue
This isn't an issue with the above implemented. You only feel the milk running aspect when you have such limited spawn points that the enemy is able to knock you completely out of play. Milk running was a side effect of the economy. Increase the launch points to the point that it is impractical to even attempt to knock out the other sides ability to lift off and the problem goes away.

Even if it wasn't the players need to understand that there are no such things as off hours. It's a 24-7 arena. There is no time you could shut the arena down that would not be unfair to some chunk of players. Prime time is different even for players in the same time zone.

Besides no group of casual players have shown the ability to stop an organized bomber raid. Those same 5-6 players accused of milk running could get together and run that same B17 raids at 6PM PST on a Friday or Saturday night with 50 people in the arena and the bombers would still get through with minimal fighting. They might not make it back to base, but short of blind dumb luck by the other side they'll get through to their targets.

Drackson

Allied Commander: AvA / Campaign Series: North Africa / Italy

Offline Trukk

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Re: So about that milking issue
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2008, 06:37:44 AM »
Oldman, do you guys have any access to arena logs?  Or is it all manual where you have to log on and check to see what the state of the map is at that time?

Offline Shifty

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Re: So about that milking issue
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2008, 08:19:19 AM »
I would also restrict the AvA to set times and days.  May 3 or 4 days a week for a  set 4 hours during the week and higher during the weekend.

If a war or setup means the arena has to be closed except on certain days, the problem is The War not the people wanting to fly off peak hours.

JG-11"Black Hearts"...nur die Stolzen, nur die Starken

"Haji may have blown my legs off but I'm still a stud"~ SPC Thomas Vandeventer Delta1/5 1st CAV

Offline TheBug

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Re: So about that milking issue
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2008, 08:29:39 AM »
So it seems to me that this is a good time to start discussing the matter again, now that we have a more complete experience.  Unless I'm missing something big, it boils down to this:  Are you willing to accept the milking casualties in exchange for relaxation of the anti-milking rules?

So what do youse guys think?

- oldman

With the correct setup milking can nullified, the ability to switch sides in a reasonable amount of time(30 mins), etc...

So I think it is ridiculous to talk about milk-running as a seperate concern and we whould be talking about setups as a whole.
“It's a big ocean, you don't have to find the enemy if you don't want to."
  -Richard O'Kane

Offline Oldman731

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Re: So about that milking issue
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2008, 10:00:46 AM »
Oldman, do you guys have any access to arena logs?  Or is it all manual where you have to log on and check to see what the state of the map is at that time?

We do not have the logs, Trukk.

- oldman

Offline Chemdawg

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Re: So about that milking issue
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2008, 10:07:56 AM »
If we're talking strictly about rules then yes. Relaxing the rules would be a good start. If we are speaking of altering the current setup to improve gameplay, I believe that Diamontes post (btw, do you ever post anything less than a dissertation?  :D) has merit. I do believe that altering the setup would need to be included as well to become a little more inviting to the non-regulars.

Offline Jester

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Re: So about that milking issue
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2008, 10:14:32 AM »
Diamontes post (btw, do you ever post anything less than a dissertation?  :D)

NO HE DOESN'T   :rolleyes:

He does it on the radio on squad nights as well.   ;)
Lt. JESTER
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Offline Trukk

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Re: So about that milking issue
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2008, 10:33:42 AM »
We do not have the logs, Trukk.
Bummer.

Offline Damionte

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Re: So about that milking issue
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2008, 11:04:08 AM »
I believe that Diamontes post (btw, do you ever post anything less than a dissertation?  :D) has merit. I do believe that altering the setup would need to be included as well to become a little more inviting to the non-regulars.

On occasion.......

Haha see I tried to just post that but couldn't.  :rofl

I just hate posting half a thought then having to come back and re-explain all the pieces people don't get. The n again I end up having to do that anyway since you guys don't always read the wall of text.  :rofl

In my defense if the arena was cooking I wouldn't have time to type these things. :)
« Last Edit: July 13, 2008, 11:05:44 AM by Damionte »
Drackson

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Offline a4944

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Re: So about that milking issue
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2008, 11:07:49 AM »
This is a WWII combat simulator.  The vast majority of people pay to play a combat simulator.  The war should be a backdrop to the fight.  Yes the war is important as an interesting backdrop, but it should be secondary.  The problem is people are putting the war first over gameplay making the combat simulator part no fun.  Some are trying to smash the ability of the other side to even play a combat simulator by shutting down fields or through rules.  :huh  

Pork away.  Does it really matter in the end.  I'd much rather have people get the arena going and have fun playing a combat simulator in an interesting setup.  Use small downtimes to help keep the fight going in this combat simulator and make porking have less of an impact.  Have smaller one week wars.  You can even use the same map over again but reset.  The winner is the side that captures the most fields but we never get to the boring end game that these long strategy wars have.  Have all the appropriate planes and armor available for the time period at all fields so people can play this combat simulator.

In summary, put the empasis on what this game is, a WWII combat simulator.  Pork away.

Thanks,
Venom




Offline Shifty

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Re: So about that milking issue
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2008, 11:55:25 AM »
This is a WWII combat simulator.  The vast majority of people pay to play a combat simulator.  The war should be a backdrop to the fight.  Yes the war is important as an interesting backdrop, but it should be secondary.  The problem is people are putting the war first over gameplay making the combat simulator part no fun.  Some are trying to smash the ability of the other side to even play a combat simulator by shutting down fields or through rules.  :huh  

Pork away.  Does it really matter in the end.  I'd much rather have people get the arena going and have fun playing a combat simulator in an interesting setup.  Use small downtimes to help keep the fight going in this combat simulator and make porking have less of an impact.  Have smaller one week wars.  You can even use the same map over again but reset.  The winner is the side that captures the most fields but we never get to the boring end game that these long strategy wars have.  Have all the appropriate planes and armor available for the time period at all fields so people can play this combat simulator.

In summary, put the empasis on what this game is, a WWII combat simulator.  Pork away.

Thanks,
Venom





You've got the right idea, don't give up.

JG-11"Black Hearts"...nur die Stolzen, nur die Starken

"Haji may have blown my legs off but I'm still a stud"~ SPC Thomas Vandeventer Delta1/5 1st CAV

Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: So about that milking issue
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2008, 01:40:12 PM »
From the other thread...

We need a smaller map. :aok  At the very least, disable or make neutral 1/2 of the bases on the current map.
gavagai
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