Pricing debate/suggestions.

[miko2d]

 There are many suggestions from some people asking to lower the rate to $10 per month or somehow modify the scheme - pay per plane, per event, ets. Most of those players are new to the high-fidelity on-line flight simming and may not have experience with such matters. I would like to give some background on those issues so that the discussions could at least be based on some realistic assumptions. I am going to refer to the Warbirds a lot here since it  is where the origin of the AH community and design team are, and still the biggest thing out there.

1. The AH does not compete with junk like FA, it competes with advanced games like Warbirds. Most of the players and the programmers here come from WB. So WB is the reasonable yardstick for comparison, not FA. And WB at $1.50 an hour is not cheap. People routinely spend more then $30/month. Sometines much, much more - hundreds of dollars per month.

2. The average age of a WB/AH player is over 30 years old with a considerable income. And that is just the attendance numbers. If you weight the average according to the times spent on-line, it will probably be greater. While my heart goes out to the poor students who cannot afford high monthly fees, I have one consolation for them: if you cannot play, you will have more time to study, then find a better job and be able to afford whatever you want.

3. The AH is currently an elite entity/game, as bad as it sounds. It is a private american corporation paid for by the players. So the owners and to lesser extent the paying players are the ones who set the rules. And so far the owners and the majority of the players are elitists. While I sympathize with students with no income and other people in america who cannot afford the play and with people in other coutries for whom the game can ve very expensive, it is not in the interests of the current players to lower the admission fee.
 Let us say somebody has a big problem paying extra $20/mo or $240/year (BTW, that is a price of 2 movie tickets here in New York).
 Well, in order to play the game you need to buy a top of the line PC at least every 2 years at $2000 ($1000/year) and upgrade a video card at least once a year ($200). Plus controls every two years - $200 ($100/year). Plus internet connection fee - $20-50/month ($240/year, more for cable/DSL).
 So before you can even play, you spend $1000 + $200 + $100 + $240 = $1600/year. People who can afford that would gladly spend that money to have the best experience.
 What happends if the producers decide to lower the admission fee to $10 and the majority of users who could not afford it before will join? They still have to buy the hardware. So they will pressure the company not to put advanced features and more complexity into the game because they cannot afford the upgrades. They will demand to make the game playable without having to buy $150 rudder pedals or the newest graphics card. They will request to implement a low-detail/high speed mode in addition to the default high-detail mode. That would require to change the code, hire new programmers to support it, cost company more money, slow down the implementation of the new features... So in a year or two the game will become a $10/month crap. Wait a minute - we already have $10/month crap - FA!! That is unfortunately the fundamental law of the capitalism - if you cannot afford the best, you have to contend with crap. And it works both ways. If you somehow make the best as easily accessible as the crap, it too WILL turn to crap. Ask canadians about their healthcare...
 All that has been and is happening in WB and other games - 2D mode, low-res mode and textures, constant complaints about the frame rate from people running it on P200, complaints aboit the "too small plane sizes" from people using 15 inch screens, demands for padlock from people who cannot afford a good HOTAS with 8-way POV hat, connection complaints from people with cheap or free internet access, etc.

4. Flat rate. Wheather it is $30 or $15 per month it is not fair. Why should somebody pay the same for flying 2 hours a months as the one flying 300 hours?
 Well, first, when you fly those 2 hours a month, you are guaranteed that the arena will be full of people and you will have fun.
 Second, this is the simplest solution for the company. They do not have to have extensive infrastructure, accounting programs, databases and software changes to keep track of your flying. Thet do not need technologists to maintain that and accountants to correct errors and technical support people ansvering the phones whenever somethingis goes wrong. There is nothing that could go wrong - you are either on or not. There are no frustrated users who cannot get to the account support. Most likely HTC have outsorced that service to some other complany for a small fee, who keeps track of all the billing for them.
 When HTC becomes a billion-dollar company, it may become cost-efficient for them to create their own accounting department and make a more complex billing system. Not yet.

 Another advantage of the flat rate is that when something goes wrong, people are not as frustrated. When I stay on line for an hour and a half during a scenario event and get dumped right before the action starts, I somehow feel better if that time did not cost me $3. That is silly because the cost of an hour of my time is much higher than that, but that is psychology for you...

5. Number of players. There is a great misconception that more players automatically beneficial to the company.
 Let us say that lovering the price from $30 to $10 attracts 3 new players (which is unlikely), so the company will get $40 in revenue. First, there is a cost per player the company has to incur. If it's $5 per player and it drops to $4, their net income goes from $25 to $24 - $4 dollar loss!!
 Plus they would have to buy almost four times as much computing power, four times as much Internet and internal bandwidth, hire people to support that hardware, rent space to locate all that hardware and personnel, etc., etc...
 The old players will get frustrated with many new young people who bring their Quake habits, everybody will be frustrated with overloaded arenas and servers, bad connects. All that happened already in other games.

 If any of you could come up with a constructive idea that takes into account all of the above, I am sure HTC will appeciate it. But since they would not tell us how much expence they incur per customer, how much they are paying for hardware and salaries, all our suggestions are pretty much groundless.

 I may sound a bit corny, but hey, we are not talking about food or medicine here, it is just a game! There are lots of things to do in this life other then AH. When I could not afford on-line flight sims ($6/hour Geanie?) I played strategy games over e-mail - lots of fun. If your gaming buget is only $10 a month you can still buy a 5 hour time in Warbirds! It is not as good as AH, but it is much better then anything else out there. It has low resolution mode, 2-D graphics, and drones in the off-line play that can actually be fun to fight against. Do not try FA or other crap - they will teach you many bad habits.

 I wish you all good luck!
miko--

[Saintaw]

Thank you Miko!


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Saw/Saintaw
GMT T.O.D. SITE
Don't shoot ! I am only an observer......
 
JG2 "Richthofen"
"Firepower Mate, that is what separates the men from the boys..."

[This message has been edited by Saintaw (edited 03-24-2000).]

[MANDOBLE]

Brief and short:
1 - We need more players.
2 - We need them quickly.

GMT + 22 = 60 players most of the days.
60 players, 3 countries, 20 players per country, 2 fronts per countrie, 20 players per front.
Now lets add vehicles. 20 players per front, 10 in vehicles and 10 in planes. this is 5 planes and 5 vehicles per front and country.

I'll keep with my 30$ monthly, no problems with that. But if there are other payment ways to increase the number of players, I'll agree with it 100%.

[Torque]

cut and paste

   

[This message has been edited by Torque (edited 03-24-2000).]

[maik]

Very WELL said  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just 1 Thing  , the AW-Community was OK too.

Maik
<JG2 Richthofen>

[FastEddie2000]

 

Originally posted by Saintaw:
Thank you Miko!

u ask too much info[phone/address]and dont use hotmail for free online testing.i refuse to answer most of the info u rec.i also only use hotmail,so i cant play.that bites!!!!it's a beta,not a finished game!no other beta rec. that much info to play.email me if u change the rec. to play.FastEddie2000.

[Westy]

 um, buh bye?

[Saintaw]

What language was that ?
Can someone translate please ?


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Saw/Saintaw
GMT T.O.D. SITE
Don't shoot ! I am only an observer......
 
JG2 "Richthofen"
"Firepower Mate, that is what separates the men from the boys..."

[This message has been edited by Saintaw (edited 03-27-2000).]

[Duckwing6]

guess FAST-EDDIE is on speed  

[eye]

Great post. I think any game risks being passed by without a large communtity.I came from aw have played wb and i can tell you 1 thing. AW3 has at least 7 times as many players.Many fly 2 or 3 account names.Its not a better game but AH will never eclipse it untill the price is close. The fact is to play this game many will need to upgrade their computer also keeps numbers down. A elite game this is ! The general level of player is great! Simply too few play to see the real potential this game has. In my opinion AH should not be 30$ a month. It should be marketing itself as a replacement for all the other games we all came from. Only way to do that is to bring price inline with the cheaper games. I have a dream 300 players on at a time in multiple arena's. Where the best regardless of money can compete. Don't you all want to see who's really the best? 30$ a month keeps some really talented players away from this game.

[easymo]

 I already know who the best is . Torque.

[Wraith]

Although I've already said a lot about this issue, I'd like to add something that I think most $30 supporters forget:

There ARE other games out there that people also play..ONLINE games (not to mention the cost of other box games we players buy).

Think about this example: "Entertainment" Budget:$10 for ONE online game, $45 for that awesome boxed game you had waited for so long, $30 for AH. Thats 85 bucks per month! Although the avg gamer doesnt buy a game per month, they do get one every 2 or 3 months, and im ONLY including COMPUTER entertainment.. add the occassional movie rental, or the ever-money-consuming girlfriend, etc, etc. You folks do have a life away from the screen...right?...RIGHT?

*crowd goes silent* Uh..oh..asking the wrong people (just kidding!   )

What EYE says is really true, I've seen awesome players on AW3, I've seen incredible players on FA and MSCFS, as crappy as these 2 last games are, you just have to admit that when you fly in an arcade FM and still see GREAT ACM knowledge, you know this guy would be good once he gets used to the realistic FM of AH.

Will those players ever be in AH? HAH! Doubt it very much. A great majority will come here, say "Cool game.. but $30? Not worth it, I'd better go back to where im having fun now and its cheaper/free". IMHO, HTC Inc has lost a lot of money because of that.
I know, I hear a LOT of people express their desire of finding a better SIM for WW2 planes they can play online.. DAILY on the Zone and in AW3. Roughly giving you a number, I'd say i've seen about 1200 people say that in the 2 months I played in MSCFS (before Longbow2 took me away   )

I disagree with Miko on his #3 point about the upgrade of the system, I've had my computer for 3 years, a P2 300 and I plan on using it for 3 more years. Outdated? Nope, processor wise it is still amongst the low standards, video (Voodoo3) or whatever card I can get on the low end of the standard spectrum will ALWAYS work with any online game.. and since the only thing that may have to be upgraded is the video (about every 2 years), then IMHO, this part of Miko's post is incorrect.Why? Because if any online game required 256 RAM, Voodoo 5's and P3 800mhz the company making it would be out of bussiness before they can blink.

Now, from what I understood Miko's post (and forgive me Miko if I misunderstand you), $30 dollars is ok because it :

a) keeps the newbies out
b)It keeps those that have free internet access/low end systems out.
c)guarantees HTC good income (applying current capitalist theory)


Result: We get a game where only those who have been playing realistic sims for years that know ACM, who have high-end systems and possible wear scarfs around their necks and flight goggles along with rudder pedals, thrust control system and zillion buttoned joysticks, run on cable/dsl/good backboned ISP's and who play no other game but AH online will be the people that will be on AH.

Hmm.. that would be kinda cool...for those few who can.  

Now, I dont have anything against HT or anyone here, so please don't be offended when I say that it is really sad to see this great game avaliable only to the "elite". I used up my 2 weeks already, and I will be back once the next version is out, just to see the P-38... but then, *poof*. Like me, I'm sure many players will be forced to take this path.

Now, apply the capitalist theory.. if AH is on the top now and stays at high rates per month..what will happen when someone ELSE makes a massive ww2 REALISTIC online sim that exceeds AH? HTC Inc. will either go down or damn hard pressed to overcome the competition...or lower prices. The current migration from WB to AH proves this is bound to happen, AH is not the only massive ww2 game coming out.. just look at ww2online .. once that is out, if it is as good as advertised, the arenas in AH will be mighty empty. Poof! Massive amounts of money will be lost due to the thousands of players kept away because of the $30 price tag.

And I bet my 6 to be strafed by everyone here that WWIIOnline's price will never get to $30..specially after seeing how many companies are switching to the $10 a month plan. Time will tell...  

[indian]

Wraith have to disagree I have visited Both HTC and Playnet. Playnet is in a higher rent district then HTC and has ten times the employees, sure it will be cross platform and maybe linux. But I remember reading a post about the cost and its about the same as AH. I realy dont think it will take that many away from AH because it will have a very linited plane set at the begging and will have to cycle threw thats evry so often to get back to the begging of the war, WWII only lasted so long. They are starting in 1939 the war went on till 1945. The main draw will be the ground troop people, kinda sounds like the quake type. WWIIonline sounds like a great game but I think it will be hard to make it workonce online.

Take the ground game side for instance everyone will want to run off and do there own thing, being a vet I know thats not how the military works they will get killed alot and then quit. Not many people want to follow orders when they are paying to play. How many will think its fun to sit in a trench and shoot at machine gun nest.

Now the air game, they said this game is set up to advance carreers of the players. how many do you think they will get with a small plane set that slowly grows and slowly comes to the favorite planes of the players.

Now for the AWII elite they are not elite in here. That fake realism they AWII uses in its so called FullReal mode is years behind this game. I left AWII over 2 years ago to play WB at that time they were talking about AWIV its still not out or even on its way. They poeple over there asked for a wish list of planes for the game from the players, a very good list was made up and all were happy about getting new planes. Well I for one follow the message boards alot and found out after me and some other players hounded them to let us know when new planes were coming that no new planes could be added because of the age of the program. I played WB for over a year and paid as much as $30 a month. I have seen any changes come and go in WB some good many not good. I have heard rumors of WB3 coming, I quit WB 8 months ago because AH came out and never looked back, 2.75 was talked about in august 99 it came out last month. HTC updates monthly.

I have seen players play online for 3 hours a day starting on firday and ending on sunday night thats 9 hours plus a weekend and times four thats 36 hours a month times the WB $2 an hours thats $72 dollars amonth per hour dont work. Those that want to pay $10 for game that has development has stagnated for years go ahead, You want to play a game that some guys can play in 2d and have better gunnery than you and pay $2 an hour go ahead.
AH is worth $30 an month and even more.

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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
  1st Aces High Trainer Corps.
Home of The Allied Fighter Wing A.F.W.
A.F.W. Homepage

[This message has been edited by indian (edited 04-07-2000).]

[-lynx-]

Well... More fun for less money elsewhere? Hmmm... Define more fun.

Last summer I watched my 16-year old going through Half-life: to finish a level was everything at whatever cost and as quickly as possible. I, on the other hand, had spent weeks exploring every nook and cranny. So, his fun was to win - mine to play.

It is fun for me to learn to fly this thing properly and that's where I get my kicks - I got a PPL because of WB, nothing else. I had to try it "for real" and am loving every hour I manage to get flying.

Once again - fun for me is a fight itself, not the end result of it. Although, if it's me who stays in the air it's like icing on a cake .

AH is targeting people who want realism - there's not much point creating another FA. The one there's is bad enough . Too difficult? Well... There are other things for those who find it difficult. Too expensive? Probably. But I'm thinking of closing my WB account - I get nothing out of it anymore - rather than AH. AH is fresher and is a challenge and is fun (for me at least). And God help HT and the gang to stay with what is RIGHT not with what the most loudmouthed want.

p.s Why do we all refer to WB as some daft "Brand W" or something? HT and Pyro and others actually CREATED the blasted thing in the first place. I don't think they have anything to be ashamed. iEN only managed to screw it all up after they all left .

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-lynx-
13 Sqn RAF

[miko2d]

 Thenk you for your replies, guys.

 I want to clear a few points in my post and add some.

1. I did not mean to slight AW and AW community by ommission, it is just that I do not know anything about it personally. I am sure it is great judging by many posts referring to it and the players coming to WB and AH from it.

2. I am not against increase in players numbers, I am all for more players, regardless off their skill level and habits, as long as the company makes money on it. The more money they have, the more they can spend  on the game as salaries and upgrades. There is also a tradeoff in how fast you want to grow. With explosive growth comes an urgent need to spend lots of money/effort on upgrading the infrastructure. We all remember how painfull it was when WB was moved...
 Also in order to do such an expansion, the company has to be sure that most of those players will stay, not jump the ship for a new toy. So the company will expand when they have confidence and some cash reserve.

3. Wraith, you are not disagreing with me, on  my point #3 - you are illustrating my opinion.
 You want to play AH in 3 years on your then-6 year old P2-300? In fact you ***alwys*** want to be able to play an on-line game with it?
 I want a game that would take a full advantage of P3-700 GeForce DDR now - tons of polygons and textures, full-screen AA, HW T&L, etc. I want working mirrors, canopy reflections, vapor trails, fog, clouds and trees. I want multiple-monitor support. In 3 years I want a game that would need a Gig of RAM and 256 Meg of memory just on the video card! And I am willing to pay for it. Since all the graphics  and physics processing takes place on the front end - my PC, the fact that the game is on-line has nothing to do with it's graphical complexity.

 We are not disagreeing with each other. Actually, we perfectly understand each other. It's just that our objectives are different. So we are trying to solve it the capitalist way - voting with dollars.
 You are saying - "give me a game playable with an economy setup and I am willing to pay, say, $15/month".
 I am saying - "give me a state of the art game with all the bells and whistles and I will pay $60/month for it and never squeak about my frame rates".
 I am not a millionaire but I have a decent salary and love this stuff - both computers and flight sims. I am willing to spend money on them to the detriment of other expences - I would rather have a luxury computer then a luxury car.

 Does HTC go with one of me or four of you? That is a very complex economical decision.  The argument in your favor is that they need to fill the arenas to keep the game playable, no matter the cost. So you have a good chance. Most likely we get a compromise. I believe the $30 an hour is already a compromise  - it is much cheaper then WB for a dedicated player.

4. May be once WB3 or WW2OL comes out and is any good, HTC will be pressured into lowering prices. For now they have the lead and should exploit it. They need all the money they can get to stay in the lead.

5. Indian - I totally agree with you on feasability of WW2OL, being a vet myself, even though on the opposite side (gunned/commanded T72 tank/platoon for the former Soviet Army). The real war is mostly a total screw-up and chaos and there you have professionals, discipline, total commitment of the participants, their motivation to do things right and much better voice comms and graphcs    
 Organising an on-line persistent game that requires a concerted effort of many dweebs who can spare an hour at a time? With no AI-controlled units? Show me and I will believe them... I really want to!

6. lynx- Agree with you too. I have never seen HT or Pyro demanding not to mention WB. It was and is a great game and they can be very proud of it. Of course AH should be better with all the experience, the fresh start and no ballast (like 2-D, multiple resolution modes, Mac, etc.). I just wish for the off-line drones to practice...

miko--

[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 04-06-2000).]