Author Topic: Waterboarding..Interrogation or Torture?(video)  (Read 2851 times)

Offline myelo

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Re: Waterboarding..Interrogation or Torture?(video)
« Reply #75 on: July 18, 2008, 09:54:01 PM »
I suppose at some point this becomes a moral issue, and thus, not debatable in logical terms.

Moral issues can be debated on logical terms. I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for that to happen here, but in principle it can be done.
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Offline DYNAMITE

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Re: Waterboarding..Interrogation or Torture?(video)
« Reply #76 on: July 18, 2008, 10:03:03 PM »
Moral issues can be debated on logical terms. I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for that to happen here, but in principle it can be done.

hehehe... i think you might be right  :aok

When it comes down too it... i guess i agree with Colin Powell when he noted in 2005 when President Bush wanted to loosely define torture, “The world is beginning to doubt the moral basis of our fight against terrorism. To redefine Common Article 3 would add to those doubts. Furthermore, it would put our own troops at risk.”


Offline Yeager

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Re: Waterboarding..Interrogation or Torture?(video)
« Reply #77 on: July 19, 2008, 12:20:59 AM »
Moral issues can be debated on logical terms. I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for that to happen here, but in principle it can be done.
Go to Afghanistan and find the tali ban PR guy.  He could use a good dose of your logical wit I am sure and no doubt you would have better luck there than here  :rolleyes:
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Offline midnight Target

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Re: Waterboarding..Interrogation or Torture?(video)
« Reply #78 on: July 19, 2008, 12:45:05 AM »
Well, Im still waiting for the Japanese WW-ll waterboarding atrocities commited on Yank POWs. :lol


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Offline Elfie

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Re: Waterboarding..Interrogation or Torture?(video)
« Reply #79 on: July 19, 2008, 12:51:15 AM »
Quote
Most here dont have kids or kin over there getting blowed up by these scumbags so that makes it easier to poke holes in the air and wax morality.

I have a son that has been there twice and is very likely to go again. I am against torture of any kind.
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Offline Yeager

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Re: Waterboarding..Interrogation or Torture?(video)
« Reply #80 on: July 19, 2008, 01:31:11 AM »
I have a son that has been there twice and is very likely to go again. I am against torture of any kind.
I salute your personal sacrifice and the sacrifice your son has made and may make again!  I mean that sincerely.

But heres the rub in our discussion!

Humans brutally murdering one another on the battlefield of war is ok but water boarding is bad?  Is that correct?  Pardon me for not connecting the dots here but I have enjoyed this thread. 

Good discussion.  Thanks.

« Last Edit: July 19, 2008, 01:33:46 AM by Yeager »
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Offline Elfie

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Re: Waterboarding..Interrogation or Torture?(video)
« Reply #81 on: July 19, 2008, 01:36:56 AM »
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Americans tortured in WW-ll. If a high value target was caught, and we needed the information, we tortured them to talk. And so did the Brits, the French, the Germans, the Japs, and God knows what the Russians did. Even after the war both Britain and America sent out special hit teams to murder German soldiers and Gestapo who were suspected of torturing and killing our POWs. No trial, no nothing. A bullet in the back of the head. The French & Poles did the same thing. There were very few Japanese POWs not just cause of their Samurai code but also cause our soldiers murdered them in cold blood when they tried to surrender. We shot plenty of Germans who were trying to surrender too, "and so did they".

Never heard of most of that before you said it. Care to provide sources other than the fire bombing we all know happened?
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Offline Elfie

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Re: Waterboarding..Interrogation or Torture?(video)
« Reply #82 on: July 19, 2008, 01:43:24 AM »
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Humans brutally murdering one another on the battlefield of war is ok but water boarding is bad?  Is that correct?  Pardon me for not connecting the dots here but I have enjoyed this thread.

I don't believe killing is ok, I don't believe war is ok, yet I understand that as long as we have different countries on this planet with differing ideologies, there WILL be wars. I have religious beliefs for why we have wars and killing as well, but I won't go into that here.

Water boarding is torture. Torturing prisoners is against the Geneva Conventions that the US signed. I believe it is morally wrong to torture a prisoner as well since that prisoner is defenseless and dependent on his/her captors for all his daily needs, food, water etc. Also, what ever happened to the good old truth serum? Sodium Pentathol? Wouldn't that be a better way to coerce information from someone?

Quote
I salute your personal sacrifice and the sacrifice your son has made and may make again!

Thank you for that. :)
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.

Offline SirLoin

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Re: Waterboarding..Interrogation or Torture?(video)
« Reply #83 on: July 19, 2008, 01:50:59 AM »


Humans brutally murdering one another on the battlefield of war is ok but water boarding is bad?  Is that correct?  Pardon me for not connecting the dots here but I have enjoyed this thread. 


Sam Harris makes that same arguement in his book "The End of Faith".
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Offline Delirium

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Re: Waterboarding..Interrogation or Torture?(video)
« Reply #84 on: July 19, 2008, 02:14:12 AM »
If you think the US government hasn't done coercive interrogation/torture in the past, you are either very gullible or naive in the extreme. We have a media now that has a lot more power than it ever did before, in the past things like this would of never been reported. I don't think reporting it now is a bad idea either...

That said, I think the US Government in some capacity should have the ability to extract information on a limited basis. The final ruling should be determined by closed door Congressional and Presidential panels and the results would be released to the public (good or bad) if the information contained would not threaten any foreign operatives or collaborators.

I find torture deplorable, but fighting an enemy that hides, fights, and threatens civilians directly by (at times) suicide attackers makes any Rules of Engagement nothing but another weapon for terrorists to use against us.

What I would like to see is a strong UN to cry out in one voice, declaring anyone convicted of an act of terrorism to be put to death. Frankly, the fact the UN is such a glorified paper tiger is one of the reasons for the turmoil/suffering/injustice in the world today.
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Offline BnZ

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Re: Waterboarding..Interrogation or Torture?(video)
« Reply #85 on: July 19, 2008, 02:36:04 AM »
Well, since the question has been asked...yes, IMO, torturing a prisoner is worse than killing an enemy on the battlefield.

Many of you are failing to realize that it is not whether or not distasteful methods of extracting information will be used (they will), the question is one of whether or not we want to try and give such methods moral and legal legitimacy.

If about torture are a weapon that the terrorists use against us, what of the rules about collateral damage? After all, they are probably terrorist sympathizers. Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out.

Offline mechanic

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Re: Waterboarding..Interrogation or Torture?(video)
« Reply #86 on: July 19, 2008, 03:11:32 AM »
Battlefield? hah, what a loose term that has become. Funny that one man's battlefield is another man's back garden. Torture is living in a country torn apart by war. Torture is seeing your children burn to death by another countries bombs. Torture is seeing your loved ones beheaded on youtube. Torture is living in a world that is rapidly causing your faith to be worthless. Torture is knowing that whatever you do will not be enough. Torture is being unable to put food in your children's mouths. Torture is being told what to do and when to do it. Torture is seeing the suffering of the ones you love and being unable to stop it. Torture is seeing a solution yet not holding the power to act. Torture is losing your liberty, whatever you consider liberty to be. Torture is crying yourself to sleep with no one to hear you. Torture is owning nothing and still having people trying to take your nothing from you. Torture is waking up each day and still being part of the human farce. Torture is knowing love and joy can never be universal. Pouring water on a persons face a bit to make them stop lying? Hell, just add it to the list, does anyone think that to outlaw waterboarding will be the end of the torture of lving in today's world?

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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Waterboarding..Interrogation or Torture?(video)
« Reply #87 on: July 19, 2008, 05:50:36 AM »
Your right Dyno. Even tho I did look for it I did miss it. So I apologize. But I did read it and am unimpressed, "and never saw a mention about 8".

But lets look at it this way. We didn't try and convict Japanese for waterboarding. We tried and convicted them for torture, some of which INCLUDED waterboarding. In other words if you were convicted of aggravated DUI for killing someone in a car accident, AND, also received a ticket for no insurance, would you go around telling people you were convicted of no insurance? Look at the wording,
Quote
Republican presidential candidate John McCain reminded people Thursday that some Japanese were tried and hanged for torturing American prisoners during World War II with techniques that included waterboarding.


If I remember right those same Japanese were the ones who conducted biological and chemical experiments on Allied prisoners. These same Japs used torture techniques so abhorrent we would blanch even thinking about them. And if they also used waterboarding then its a real stretch to say they were convicted of waterboarding. In fact its downright silly. Especially when you take into account the monstrous things the Japanese did.

And because of the monstrous things they did, as Al Qaeda does, we responded with brutality as well. While we went nowhere near their extremes we did murder their soldiers without mercy and we did level their country with a bombing campaign that set a new standard for the word "carnage".

We are losing the momentum in this war right now yaknow. It IS starting to turn into another Vietnam complete with the border refuge our enemies can run to and the Marquis of Queensbury rules of war our gullible and comfortable public are forcing on our military. Next we will have severe morale problems among soldiers who know they are just pawns, and that they are not allowed to win because the American public wants to go to bed at night feeling more moral then the next guy.



Well here you go Rich... though i doubt you'll take the time to read it-

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR2007110201170.html

Maybe you'll find this quote interesting-
After World War II, we convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war. At the trial of his captors, then-Lt. Chase J. Nielsen, one of the 1942 Army Air Forces officers who flew in the Doolittle Raid and was captured by the Japanese, testified: "I was given several types of torture. . . . I was given what they call the water cure." He was asked what he felt when the Japanese soldiers poured the water. "Well, I felt more or less like I was drowning," he replied, "just gasping between life and death."

or this-
Nielsen's experience was not unique. Nor was the prosecution of his captors. After Japan surrendered, the United States organized and participated in the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, generally called the Tokyo War Crimes Trials. Leading members of Japan's military and government elite were charged, among their many other crimes, with torturing Allied military personnel and civilians. The principal proof upon which their torture convictions were based was conduct that we would now call waterboarding.

Or maybe John McCain can convince you...
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/29/politics/main3554687.shtml

"There should be little doubt from American history that we consider that as torture otherwise we wouldn't have tried and convicted Japanese for doing that same thing to Americans," McCain said during a news conference.


« Last Edit: July 19, 2008, 05:52:36 AM by Rich46yo »
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Offline myelo

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Re: Waterboarding..Interrogation or Torture?(video)
« Reply #88 on: July 19, 2008, 06:32:39 AM »
Quote from: myelo
Moral issues can be debated on logical terms. I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for that to happen here, but in principle it can be done.

Go to Afghanistan and find the tali ban PR guy.  He could use a good dose of your logical wit I am sure and no doubt you would have better luck there than here  :rolleyes:

Everybody can breath now.
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Offline texasmom

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Re: Waterboarding..Interrogation or Torture?(video)
« Reply #89 on: July 19, 2008, 11:28:10 AM »
Apart that torture is illegal and pretty much against principles this country is build upon, it crosses just about every moral/ethical/legal boundary known to western societies, and one day it may come back to bite us in the rear, if found acceptable not only by people but by our government as well.

What really worries me is that such people are passing skewed ethics down to new generations by means like that of home schooling, etc...

 :lol Nice jab on the home schooling, took a few days before I went back & read that last part.   I'd say that there was also a lesson in honesty in that.  I suppose I could have lied about my position on it, to make sure that I always have your approval... but I didn't.

One thing that does bother me is our governments white glove stance on torture.  They're willing to send prisoners to countries which authorize torture & essentially have other countries do our dirty work... while they say "oh, no... we don't approve."  If the government stands in approval of torture, they need to own up to that instead of doing it in secret through other countries/governments whose stance is widely known already.  That kind of double-talk is awful.  And if our government can't take the heat of the astounding disapproval that follows their admission of torture approval, then they need not do it.
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