Author Topic: P-40N (and update the other P-40s)  (Read 2203 times)

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: P-40N (and update the other P-40s)
« Reply #45 on: July 17, 2008, 06:22:52 PM »


BTW,the 109 in AHII could eke out wins against every piece of American Iron at typical alts with its energy-building ability alone. Especially against the P-40. It doesn't need to have huge maneuverability advantage, too. Don't the 109'ers of AHII deserve "natural enemies" who are worthy adversaries?  ;)


They do, Spitfires, LA-5s, LA-7s, Mustangs, Thunderbolts, Lightnings...


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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: P-40N (and update the other P-40s)
« Reply #46 on: July 17, 2008, 06:32:53 PM »
I have never heard of any pilot who was saddend to be transferred from P-40s to P-38s, P-47s, P-51s or Spitfires.

Actually, in the PTO there were quite a few USAAF squadrons that weren't happy when they transitioned to the P-47 from the P-40, even some that were mad about losing their P-40s when they switched to P-38s.  Some pilots in the 49th FG thought that their old P-40 mounts were just as capable as the Lightning that replaced their Warhawks. 

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Offline Krusty

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Re: P-40N (and update the other P-40s)
« Reply #47 on: July 17, 2008, 07:33:30 PM »
WW, I think a lot of things in-game react differently because of massive over-use of the flaps and how they are modeled. Still, even if maybe the P-40K is heavier, and maybe that worsens the turning radius, that data set, whatever it is, is based off of some flight test somewhere that HTC has stored away in a file cabinet.

Also, if we had a real E, I think you mentioned (or somebody else) that the -E didn't have any WEP, so it wouldn't have the raw horsepower to haul itself around in turns like some planes can. It might have a tighter radius (as many slower planes do) but a slower turn rate. Or something.

Offline BnZ

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Re: P-40N (and update the other P-40s)
« Reply #48 on: July 17, 2008, 09:37:20 PM »
I was in fact aware of the facts regarding the P-40's wingloading. I did the math, Warhawk is lighter by maybe a very small margin, both at 75%.

However, I didn't mention it, because the discussion had already turned abit sour, and anyway, IMO, the mounds of pilot reports and impressions from actuall combat trumps us sitting here at our desks trying to calculate the turn radius of these aircraft.

It is not a matter of proving who is 2% better in turn radius. It is the fact that planes with similar wingloadings are completely out of the ball-park in relation to one another. The fact is, if we believe what the pilots had to say,  P-40s, late P-38s, and P-51s were all at least somewhat competitive with their contemporary 109s in turning. But are not in AHII.

The P-47 was NOT terribly competive with the 109 in turn radius, both American and German pilots understood this. I posted a quote from a German pilot on a thread awhile ago to the effect that "The P-47 was not so bad, we could out-climb it and out-turn it..." but apparently the P-51 was a tougher nut to crack.

 Compare this to the P-51/P-47 in AHII. The P-47 doesn't lag too far behind the Pony without flaps, and actually out-turns it with them.

This is a result that flat disagrees with historical tests, and the opinion not just of American pilots, but of their German counterparts. So sorry guys, I'm still not planning on doing any penance because I dared to question the infallibility of the flight models.



Krusty, you realize that the P-40E had a lower wing loading than the Bf 109F, right?

It should turn better... Even tho it doesn't in game.

There's lots on anecdotal evidence that indicates that the P-40 was at least equal to the 109 in turn radius, with the P-39 doing likewise. Our P-40s have some modeling issues.. Always have. Plus, the 109's flaps are a bit over done in the game, IMHO.

Where the 109 should be and is superior is in the vertical.


My regards,

Widewing
« Last Edit: July 17, 2008, 09:46:11 PM by BnZ »

Offline Krusty

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Re: P-40N (and update the other P-40s)
« Reply #49 on: July 17, 2008, 11:13:02 PM »
It's not that you questioned a specific detail. You said the entire thing is untrustworthy, as a blanket statement.

The flaps in the P-51 seem to have issues.

Also, you can't only rely on pilot anecdotes, either. Many times a pilot is not flying their plane to its full extent and lead an enemy to feel it was an inferior plane. Look at the spitfire pilot that can't pull back on the stick hard enough to out-turn a 109... 109 pilot might say "I easily out turned him, it was not even close" but other data point to the opposite.

Other flight data and records point to the opposite of the P-40. Let's not forget some pilots grew irrationally fond of planes that got them home alive, regardless of their flight performance after that.

Historically, the P-40 was ... (to phrase it my own way) dog meat. Countless P-40s fell over the desert in N. Africa to 109Fs and other LW planes. It was not competitive in the way it was flown. Nor is it competitive in the AH arenas. It is an underdog, and historically has been considered a workhorse but inferior to other designs.

Like the P-47. It broke the LWs back, so to speak, but was NOT a better dogfighter than the P-51, Spitfire, 109, etc.

Offline BnZ

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Re: P-40N (and update the other P-40s)
« Reply #50 on: July 17, 2008, 11:53:08 PM »
It's not that you questioned a specific detail. You said the entire thing is untrustworthy, as a blanket statement.

What I mistrust is the ability of a program that easily runs on a $500 dollar desktop computer from Wal-Mart to be able to calculate how well a given aircraft will turn purely from the aircraft's physical dimensions, wing-loading, power-loading, etc, so perfectly that there is no chance of boo-boos.

The flaps in the P-51 seem to have issues.

And have had these issues for how long? It has been abit of time now since AHII debuted "the worst P51 in any sim, ever"(tm), and we've gotten some new airframes, some new vehicles, had old cockpits redone, and had an AI introduced. But the issues remain. And I'm sorry, call me crazy, I still can't help but wonder if some of the "issues" with P-planes and lack of "issues" with certain planes (like the very generous extent to which 109 controls function at high IAS) might be deliberate to somewhat balance the enormous popularity that American planes will always have with your average customer, which they would retain even if they flew like dump trucks.

Also, you can't only rely on pilot anecdotes, either. Many times a pilot is not flying their plane to its full extent and lead an enemy to feel it was an inferior plane. Look at the spitfire pilot that can't pull back on the stick hard enough to out-turn a 109... 109 pilot might say "I easily out turned him, it was not even close" but other data point to the opposite.

You can't trust a single account implicitly, no. But when enough of them report the same phenomena, you cannot dismiss them either.


Historically, the P-40 was ... (to phrase it my own way) dog meat. Countless P-40s fell over the desert in N. Africa to 109Fs and other LW planes. It was not competitive in the way it was flown. Nor is it competitive in the AH arenas. It is an underdog, and historically has been considered a workhorse but inferior to other designs.

You'll get no arguement from me on this one. Just history proving once again that the energy fighter trumps the angles fighter. The 109 pwning the P-40 is no more surprising than the F6F pwning the Zero, and happened for similar reasons.

Like the P-47. It broke the LWs back, so to speak, but was NOT a better dogfighter than the P-51,

I'm glad you said that, because it brings us right back to what I have been sayin...in AHII, the Jug IS equal/better than the Mustang as a dogfighter. If you don't overload it, it will drop flaps and follow La7s, Tempests, and 109s around in turns that would have the pony buffeting and saying "no way, Jose!" This is a complete inversion of historical performance, although it could be argued that with the Pony you get an a-historical ability to dive like a jug without stiffening controls or much fear of structural failure...but ah, that is another issue.

Offline Vudak

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Re: P-40N (and update the other P-40s)
« Reply #51 on: July 18, 2008, 12:14:38 AM »

However, I didn't mention it, because the discussion had already turned abit sour, and anyway, IMO, the mounds of pilot reports and impressions from actuall combat trumps us sitting here at our desks trying to calculate the turn radius of these aircraft.


Eh, I don't hold actual pilot accounts that useful in terms of aircraft performance capabilities... Two main reasons:

1.  There is absolutely no way any real life pilot is getting the most out of his aircraft.  If he ever tried to learn how to do that, he'd be dead long before he was able to reach that level and report about it.

(Great example - I'm transitioning equipment right now and trying to relearn the edge of my planes...  And am averaging about 30 horrific fatal crashes per hour doing so)

2.  Real life pilots never had the useful "System: You have shot so and so down."  Like it's so often said, it's the pilot, not the plane.  In many accounts, we just have no way of knowing the various experience levels, etc.  Also the fact that there's no film with nifty trails and a running speed/altitude ticker in the top right corner doesn't help.
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Offline Karnak

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Re: P-40N (and update the other P-40s)
« Reply #52 on: July 18, 2008, 03:26:56 AM »
Yet HTC is immune from making any tweaks based on player base demands or balance? Or, as I theorize, to prevent the MA from being 50% P-51s, 30% P-38s, and 18% P-40s and P-47s

You really think HTC has "balanced" against the Pursuits that badly and that the Pursuits were that dominant over every other nation and service's fighters?

You sound more biased that the worst "Luftwhiner" we ever had.
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Offline Widewing

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Re: P-40N (and update the other P-40s)
« Reply #53 on: July 18, 2008, 09:05:05 AM »
WW, I think a lot of things in-game react differently because of massive over-use of the flaps and how they are modeled. Still, even if maybe the P-40K is heavier, and maybe that worsens the turning radius, that data set, whatever it is, is based off of some flight test somewhere that HTC has stored away in a file cabinet.

Also, if we had a real E, I think you mentioned (or somebody else) that the -E didn't have any WEP, so it wouldn't have the raw horsepower to haul itself around in turns like some planes can. It might have a tighter radius (as many slower planes do) but a slower turn rate. Or something.

In the game, with both at max fuel, the P-40E has a lower wing loading. As fuel burns off, the ratio of weight to wing area improves more for the P-40 than the 109. Thus, at 25% fuel, the P-40E will be even better.

In the real world, the P-40 could out turn the 109 at and below corner velocity. Granted, it lacked the power to sustain this advantage for very long. However, that wasn't the only flight characteristic where the P-40 held an advantage. It had a faster rate of roll. It didn't stiffen at higher speeds (below critical Mach) and it could deploy flaps at higher speed.

Countering those advantages were the 109's superior acceleration, speed and climb. In the game, we can add the 109's super-uber flaps.

I've seen mention in this thread how the 109s dominated the P-40s in North Africa. Many of these losses were Tomahawk IIB types, which were overweight and could barely manage 340 mph clean. Kittyhawks were another matter. However, while they suffered much less than the old weary Tomahawks, they still suffered lopsided kill to loss ratios against the Luftwaffe's 109s. What wasn't mentioned was why they did. Tactics. The P-40s were assigned sorties largely in close support of ground troops or flying interdiction missions. They flew low most of the time, which gave the Luftwaffe the advantage of altitude. Another issue was the relatively low air to air combat skill levels of the P-40 pilots. The bulk of RAF Tomahawk and Kittyhawk pilots were raw, fresh from training with little to no combat experience. There were, sprinkled in amongst the rookies, some very good Commonwealth fighter pilots. "Killer" Caldwell being one example. Caldwell shot down at least ten 109s in his P-40s (Tomahawks and Kittyhawks).

When USAAF P-40 units began deploying in North Africa, they brought along many experienced pilots. When the Luftwaffe began encountering American P-40s, they noted that this new enemy had vastly better combat discipline, and were generally encountered at higher altitudes. By mid January of 1943, the American P-40s had established a record of two kills for each loss against the Luftwaffe and the Regia Aeronautica, and those losses included those by all causes (operational, flak, etc). This was not only due to better tactics, discipline and training, it was also due to occasionally having P-38s as high cover on long range missions and Spitfires as high cover for shorter ranging assignments. That said, even without fighter cover, the P-40s were now holding their own and then some.

P-40s were still in combat in Italy into mid 1944. Despite being borderline obsolescent, they proved very effective against the Luftwaffe, who was now suffering from a lack of experienced pilots itself. A study of 12th Air Force P-40 operations in Italy will surprise most people.

Krusty, the P-40K's gross weight was 120 lb greater than the P-40E. Not significant, being well within the variance we will see in fuel states.


My regards,

Widewing
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 09:06:50 AM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

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Offline BnZ

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Re: P-40N (and update the other P-40s)
« Reply #54 on: July 18, 2008, 09:51:15 AM »
You really think HTC has "balanced" against the Pursuits that badly and that the Pursuits were that dominant over every other nation and service's fighters?

You sound more biased that the worst "Luftwhiner" we ever had.

1. I believe it is possible there is a certain amount of tweaking going on to encourage people to fly different planes, yes.

2. I believe if the Pursuits, particularly the P-51D were closer to EQUAL to most fighters in the MA, not superior, but close enough that say the average P-51 stick merging in a Co-E dogfight with the average 109 stick stood 50/50 shot, they might see use in such huge numbers that there would be balance issues. The P-51 is rather mediocre compared to the other 4 top planes, yet there it is, tour after tour, in the top 4. I believe that if the P-51 were as good as it was, there could be a good argument for perking it, yet perking the P-51 might be problematic from a business model issue. And I'm sure the P-40's popularity use would go up alot if it were a better t'n'ber

Personally, I'd love to see a better P-51D with a 5 point or so perk price, leave the B model free on account of its weaker firepower.

There would be no reason to perk a better P-40, since what you would have would be alot like an early Spit with less engine power and no Hispanos.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 09:54:54 AM by BnZ »

Offline angelsandair

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Re: P-40N (and update the other P-40s)
« Reply #55 on: July 18, 2008, 02:28:01 PM »
In the game, with both at max fuel, the P-40E has a lower wing loading. As fuel burns off, the ratio of weight to wing area improves more for the P-40 than the 109. Thus, at 25% fuel, the P-40E will be even better.

In the real world, the P-40 could out turn the 109 at and below corner velocity. Granted, it lacked the power to sustain this advantage for very long. However, that wasn't the only flight characteristic where the P-40 held an advantage. It had a faster rate of roll. It didn't stiffen at higher speeds (below critical Mach) and it could deploy flaps at higher speed.

Countering those advantages were the 109's superior acceleration, speed and climb. In the game, we can add the 109's super-uber flaps.

I've seen mention in this thread how the 109s dominated the P-40s in North Africa. Many of these losses were Tomahawk IIB types, which were overweight and could barely manage 340 mph clean. Kittyhawks were another matter. However, while they suffered much less than the old weary Tomahawks, they still suffered lopsided kill to loss ratios against the Luftwaffe's 109s. What wasn't mentioned was why they did. Tactics. The P-40s were assigned sorties largely in close support of ground troops or flying interdiction missions. They flew low most of the time, which gave the Luftwaffe the advantage of altitude. Another issue was the relatively low air to air combat skill levels of the P-40 pilots. The bulk of RAF Tomahawk and Kittyhawk pilots were raw, fresh from training with little to no combat experience. There were, sprinkled in amongst the rookies, some very good Commonwealth fighter pilots. "Killer" Caldwell being one example. Caldwell shot down at least ten 109s in his P-40s (Tomahawks and Kittyhawks).

When USAAF P-40 units began deploying in North Africa, they brought along many experienced pilots. When the Luftwaffe began encountering American P-40s, they noted that this new enemy had vastly better combat discipline, and were generally encountered at higher altitudes. By mid January of 1943, the American P-40s had established a record of two kills for each loss against the Luftwaffe and the Regia Aeronautica, and those losses included those by all causes (operational, flak, etc). This was not only due to better tactics, discipline and training, it was also due to occasionally having P-38s as high cover on long range missions and Spitfires as high cover for shorter ranging assignments. That said, even without fighter cover, the P-40s were now holding their own and then some.

P-40s were still in combat in Italy into mid 1944. Despite being borderline obsolescent, they proved very effective against the Luftwaffe, who was now suffering from a lack of experienced pilots itself. A study of 12th Air Force P-40 operations in Italy will surprise most people.

Krusty, the P-40K's gross weight was 120 lb greater than the P-40E. Not significant, being well within the variance we will see in fuel states.


My regards,

Widewing

Wow, great read WW. And you can make the strongest point out here.  :aok
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Offline olskool2

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Re: P-40N (and update the other P-40s)
« Reply #56 on: July 19, 2008, 03:18:41 AM »
This thread should have been closed when this blasphemy against the p40 started. It's an infinitely more capable plane than it is given credit for both in MA and in ww2.


 Average MA P40 flying (note the teeth)
http://www.mediafire.com/?z5z3bpjv2sf



Offline Karnak

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Re: P-40N (and update the other P-40s)
« Reply #57 on: July 21, 2008, 07:35:42 AM »
This thread should have been closed when this blasphemy against the p40 started. It's an infinitely more capable plane than it is given credit for both in MA and in ww2.


 Average MA P40 flying (note the teeth)
http://www.mediafire.com/?z5z3bpjv2sf



I wasn't aware this was a religious subject....


And the P-40 was always an also ran compared to the top end fighters of WWII. That is not surprising given its development timeline and history.
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Offline trigger2

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Re: P-40N (and update the other P-40s)
« Reply #58 on: July 21, 2008, 01:26:11 PM »
The P-40 IS undermodeled, plain and simple, I hope we can all agree on that.
And yes, there are those 'uber' planes out there.
BUT.
I find it to (yes! this is true!) be MORE of the pilot than the plane.

I'll-be-it it's hard to get a spit XVI with a 109g-2, you just gotta work advantages, and know how to use your disadvantages to your advantage...

With my personal experiance in the P-40 (I flew it for about 4 1/2 tours, so, not a pro, but I got to learn it) it was amazing.
You guys are complaining about it's 'Inability to TnB' which is COMPLETLY false.

With my P-40E I RARELY got shot down in a TnB fight.

You DO have to change up your manuvering style with the P-40 though which is what I think you guys are complaining about, you DON'T know how to use it right.

In the P-40 you can't lock the stick back in a turn like you can with the spittys, you gotta be CONSTANTLY changing your airspeed, your flaps, your direction, and even have to take some extremely risky moves (split S manuver at 200 feet... that's tough to pull off) and even so, locking the stick back isn't a good idea.

I've learned a few great manuvers with the p40, one of my favorites, lock the stick, make 'em think you're getting into a TnB, get 'em on your 6, chop throttle to about 25% and do a barrel roll over the top of 'em, instant overshoot and gun position... sounds cheap, sounds 'Oh, but what if they get a shot on you', the thing with this manuver, is ALL timing, you utilize the p40's LOWER airspeed.

Another one of my favorites in the p40 IS TnB'n them.
I've got spitty kills under my belt in 'em, and I love watching p51 pilots thinking they can outturn it, it's MORE the stick, than it is the plane...

Let me say that AGAIN!

It's MORE the PILOT than it is the PLANE.

Learn the planes before you start suggesting they're 'overmodeled' or 'can't do this or that' or even 'they need fixed' (although, in this case, I do agree that the P-40 needs fixed...)

And if you guys think the p-40 is 'too uber' as it is because of it's K/D ratio in RL, check out the Flying Tigers...
P40B's (later on, E's) vs KI's and other Jap planes... with MINIMAL losses...
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