Author Topic: Anecdotal Jug Info - comments? (Read 937 times)

AKcurly · « **on:** April 05, 2001, 01:55:00 AM »

Earlier, I posted a note claiming that I believed the Jug's climb rate was badly modeled. Most of you reacted with laughter.

From "Thunderbolt!" by Robert Johnson, page 280 ...

[setting - my words: Johnson's belly tank was still attached to his plane - he couldn't shake it off - and he's cruising 500 feet above two fighters who are circling over the ocean -- low enough that water is kicked up when guns are fired.]

"Before I settled back to watch the second fighter down, habit brough my head swiveling around to look behind me. I was just in time to see a Focke-Wulf bouncing, nose twinkling from the .30 calibers. My left hand slammed forward on the throttle, my right hand hauled back and left on the stick, my heart went to the top of my head and the thunderbolt leaped forward. I racked the Jug into a tight left climbing turn , staying just above and in front of the pursuing Focke-Wulf. Those wonderful paddle blades! To get any strikes on me the Kraut first had to turn inside me and then haul his nose up steeply to place his bullets ahead of me. The Focke-Wulf just didn't have it. At 8,000 feet, he stalled out while the Thunderbolt roared smoothly; I kicked over into a roll and locked onto his tail."

My word again: Johnson continues the fight and marvels at the skill of the German pilot. The guy is so good, Johnson won't let him bail and shoots him as he attempts to leave his cockpit -- claiming that had he let him live, he would have surely killed many allied fighters and bombers.

Now, a climbing left turn is indeed a wonderful defensive move against the right plane. And, FWs don't turn really well w/o serious energy losses. But, the jug doesn't do anything (in Aces High) without serious energy losses -- wait, you can dive, but that's it. And for the love of pete, he's doing a climbing left turn with his freaking belly tank attached.

Ok, aircraft experts [I'm not one,] whatta ya think?

AKcurly

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #1 on:** April 05, 2001, 02:19:00 AM »

I mean this honestly and without any other motives, but 109s were pretty much the spiral climb champs in RL, yet here this manuver doesnt really work as an escape tactic. Is there something in AH FM that somehow limits the effect of this move?

-ammo- · « **Reply #2 on:** April 05, 2001, 02:26:00 AM »

Curly, great read. One of my favorites. First, Johnson was "really" proud of the P-47 as witnessed by the book. To him there was none better than his P-47. Keep that in mind when he describes his adventures. Now is the AH P-47 not right? I dont know, according to Johnson, you would think yes. Now go get Hub Zemke's book and he tells a little different story. Johnson stated that after the Paddle Blade prop install, nothing could climb with his jug. ( BTW his jug pulled 72" Manifold pressure, can you say tweaked?

), however we know that a 109 would leave it in the dust in a climb.

I think Im gonna read the book again, thx curly, <S>

fscott · « **Reply #3 on:** April 05, 2001, 02:49:00 AM »

Combat turns, as Johnson was performing there, are difficult things to model. Completely and entirely seperate from sustained climb rate. If the jug has some speed, I'm sure it can do an amazing combat turn, just the same as it can zoom climb. Do we know what kind of 190 was behind him? How much fuel did each have? Ammo? 190 has engine probs? Fuselage damage?

fscott

LLv34_Camouflage · « **Reply #4 on:** April 05, 2001, 04:56:00 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
I mean this honestly and without any other motives, but 109s were pretty much the spiral climb champs in RL, yet here this manuver doesnt really work as an escape tactic. Is there something in AH FM that somehow limits the effect of this move?

Not the FM. Range icons. But it is still an effective tactic - just be careful not to ZOOM climb. Climb gently and observe the distance...

Camo

------------------
Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
www.muodos.fi/LLv34

Brewster into AH!

"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."

flakbait · « **Reply #5 on:** April 05, 2001, 06:11:00 AM »

Saying that the Fw had .30 cals in the nose means it's an Fw-190 A6 or earlier. Probably an A5 or A4 model actually since they were a tad more common. I think the tale has just a little over-embellishment to it. An Fw-190 A? not being able to turn with a P-47? Me thinks there's more to the tale than Johnson is letting on.

-----------------------
Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta Six's Flight School
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"With all due respect Chaplian, I don't think God wants to hear from me right now.
I'm gonna go out there and remove one of His creations from this universe.
And when I get back I'm gonna drink a bottle of Scotch like it was Chiggy von
Richthofen's blood and celebrate his death."
Col. McQueen, Space: Above and Beyond

Lephturn · « **Reply #6 on:** April 05, 2001, 07:32:00 AM »

Gentlemen,

Johnson's Jug, named "Lucky", had a common field modification done. The P&W engineers made the rounds of the Jug squads and showed the crew chiefs how to change the waste gate pressures on the RR2800. The P&W guys had done extensive tests on the engines, and found that they could handle much higher boost pressures for long periods of time than they were originally designed for. While they built new engines with higher boost pressures for the later model planes, they knew the older series engines could handle higher pressures, so they toured the Jug squadrons and showed the crew chiefs and mechanics how to modify the waste gate valves to increase the boost pressures on the older Jugs. Johnson's "Lucky" pulled as much as 72" WG boost. Give the AH Jug that field mod, and you would find it performed much closer to Johnson's anecdotes. In addition, "Lucky" had been smoothed, the rivet heads ground down and the fuse and wing surfaces polished. Again, our Jugs don't have that option. Put those two things together, and I think you end up with a Jug capable of close to 500 Mph and with greater acceleration and climb. Now some of the anecdotes start to make sense.

I believe these field mods explain many of the differences between the anecdotes and the flight model in AH.

I would be interested to know how many D-25's and D-30's were modded like this. Since the engine producer's engineers toured the squads and demonstrated how to make these mods, and that it was safe to do so, I would think it would be a large number.

Then next time the Loosewaffles ask for a "field mod", remember that you may not want to open that can of worms. A 500 Mph Jug would be the worst nightmare the LW ever had. <G>

------------------
Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer

A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com

Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH articles and training info!

[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 04-05-2001).]

-ammo- · « **Reply #7 on:** April 05, 2001, 08:24:00 AM »

well, this combat happened in summer-fall '43 so whatever 190 or 109 was beating the skies around dummer lake, a constant opponent to the 56th FG was JG26, so If I recall it was prolly a 190A4 in that time period. There are some history wizzes here that can chime in.

If you have never read it, go get you a copy of "thunderbolt!" by Robert Johnson.

jihad · « **Reply #8 on:** April 05, 2001, 08:37:00 AM »

Heh, give us the option of turning the boost up - and the possibility of catastrophic engine failure if we run it too long/hard. <G>

Westy · « **Reply #9 on:** April 05, 2001, 08:46:00 AM »

Read Widewings interview with Robert Johnson whihc can be found in the Aircraft-Vehicles forumn. there's always a reason behind everything and if folks didn't know that Johnson was flying a hot rod of a Thunderbolt then they would expect all Thunderbolts to be like this.

-Westy

AKcurly · « **Reply #10 on:** April 05, 2001, 01:08:00 PM »

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Ammo sez:
Johnson stated that after the Paddle Blade prop install, nothing could climb with his jug. ( BTW his jug pulled 72" Manifold pressure, can you say tweaked?
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Yes, Johnson stated many times how important the new prop was concerning the Jug's climbrate. Indeed, Johnson flew against a Spit9b [practice] and couldn't climb with it. After the prop mod, Johnson states the Spit9b couldn't climb with the Jug.
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Fscott sez:
Do we know what kind of 190 was behind him? How much fuel did each have? Ammo? 190 has engine probs? Fuselage damage?
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The 190 made some astonishing maneuvers, so no, don't think it was damaged. Concerning fuel -- Johnson had tried to drop his DT right before this occurred (because of an engagement, not because it was empty), so I assume the DT wasn't full, but the main tanks on the JUG were close to 100%. No idea about the fuel status of the 190 of course.
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Camo sez:
Not the FM. Range icons. But it is still an effective tactic - just be careful not to ZOOM climb. Climb gently and observe the distance...
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Camo, not sure what you mean. Certainly if they are close, they need to get less of their nose in front of you ... is that what you mean?
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Lephturn sez:
Johnson's Jug, named "Lucky", had a common field modification done.
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Leph, Lucky was dead by the time this happened. I imagine the other jugs had the engine mod tho.

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Thx guys, interesting remarks. BTW, many of us who fly LW planes know to leave gondolas at home ... and yet, all of the opponents Johnson described ALWAYS carried the additional armament. Johnson doesn't say as much, but I couldn't help but wonder if the German pilots carried the gondolas only if they were fighting buffs.

Akcurly