Okay lets discuss the bombers role in AH gameplay!

[GrinBird]

Baddawg.. dont underestimate HTC. If they want to create bombing like that, they can do it.. and do it now.
And Jigster.. hitting factories from high altitude  on daily basis by B17s? I have never heard about that. Precision bombing by divebombing was important in every scenerio in WW2, skilled pilots could hit certain stories of a building without hitting the roof. In close groundsupport fighters could do wonders by divebombing.

Let me quote Lizking from a discussion on the WW2-online BBS, he is describing the "precision" of the heavy bombers in WW2.
 

Some numbers:
Cratering effects of bombs in sandy loam
BOMB SIZE/CRATER DEPTH/CRATER DIAMETER/LETHAL RADIUS(All are instant fuzes, measured in feet)
500#/2/9/60-90
1,000#/6/20/70-105
2,000#/7/22/83-125

Table 3 and 4, page 225, "America's Pursuit of Precision Bombing, 1910-1945",S tephen McFarlane.

Eighth Airforce Bombing Accuracy(1943)

All percentages are based on bombs landing within 1000' of the Assigned Aiming Point. Bombs over 3000' from the AAP were not counted.

Jan-15%
Feb-18%
Mar-19%
Apr-15%
May-14%
Jun-11%
Jul-12%
Aug-21%
Sep-15%
Oct-25%
Nov-31%
Dec-24%

(Figure 10.1, page 173, ibid)

Effects of altitude on Bombing Accuracy(Jan1-Nov 16, 1943)

ALTITUDE DROPPED/PERCENTAGE WITHIN 1,000 FEET OF AIMING POINT

27,500'/5%
24,000'/9%
21,000'/14%
18,000'/21%
15,000'/24%
12,000'/44%

[This message has been edited by GrinBird (edited 08-24-2000).]

[Mattibaby80]

WW2 bombers weren't limited to just strategic bombing.  Most (if not all) of the Luftwaffe bombers were tactical bombers, used to support infantry and ground units during an assault.  It was the failure of the Luftwaffe to design an effective, long range, strategic bomber and thats one of the reasons that they lost the Battle of Britain.  The bombers used then were tactical (Ju-87, He-111, Do-17), not designed to fly and hit distant targets.  They were most effectively used in conjuction with ground units, where they mutually supported one another.  When bombing of London started, the Luftwaffe was out of its league.

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Meine Schwester hat keine kartoffel salat?  Du bist eine lustige Buba!!!

[Karnak]

GrinBird,
The only way to enforce your suggested rule would be to make bombsites inaccurate.  If this were done, we'd never see buffs in the MA anymore.  We don't have enough strategic stuff to hit, nor does what we have incur enough of a penalty on the enemy to justify much use of heavy bombers.

If we had factories that produced the various aircraft; say 1 factory per side for outdated stuff like Spitfire MkVb, C.202, A6M5b, Bf109F-4 and La5s, 2 factories for mid-range stuff like Ju88, Lancaster, Typhoon, B-26 and C.205s, 3 for high end stuff; then the heavy bombers could actually have a noticable effect on the war without pinpoint destruction of airfields.  Under my idea, the last available unit of a given type could always be produced, for example a side could never be reduced to no bombers, no fighters, no tanks and no transports.  If the last fighter available to one side is a Bf109G-2, and the factory that builds it is then destroyed or captured, that side could still build Bf109G-2s.

Sisu
-Karnak

[Citabria]

remove the zoom magnification power


everyone gave HTC kudos when they thought bombsight magnification was removed... then they found the zoom key and buffs went back up to 25k+

 

tone down the zoom or remove it completely and you retain pinpoint accuracy but only at realistic altitudes.

[Jigster]

Originally posted by GrinBird:
Baddawg.. dont underestimate HTC. If they want to create bombing like that, they can do it.. and do it now.
And Jigster.. hitting factories from high altitude  on daily basis by B17s? I have never heard about that. Precision bombing by divebombing was important in every scenerio in WW2, skilled pilots could hit certain stories of a building without hitting the roof. In close groundsupport fighters could do wonders by divebombing.


Well remember not all planes or nations had reliable bomb releases. Dive bombing is much to the effect in AH...takes practice.

And the bomber formations...the whole bases on the "precision bombing" campaign was try to knock out key factory buildings for the strategic effort. Granted precision was not all good but enough planes releasing at the same time, and one is bound to hit it. Happened on a daily basis, provide weather and visibility was good enough to fly. From '43 up. Lots of people died on those bombers with the belief that they were doing precision raids and minimizing civilian casulties (till orders changed at least)

Blah, with as many duds and other factors contributing to dive bombing, it not as accurate as you might think. It sure is alot more dangerous to the pilots.

Again the Norden was a very accurate sight, but only under the right situations.

- Jig

[Hazed]

citabria you've hit the nail on the head i say..make it impossible to see targets clearly at height and the problem is solved.
SAY NO TO ZOOM  

[Sorrow[S=A]]

Grin I think you are labouring under a wrong assumption...

B17's were not THAT innacurate...  They dropped alot of ordinance on a target but when they wanted precision they COULD get it. However most only used the lead aircraft's norton and dropped on his lead. That doesn't make for precision but it does make for good carpet effect which is what they wanted to take out entire industrial districts.
  A firestorm to take out a target? BS! The firestorms were all done by night raids. Precision is a non-existant thing when you are bombing an entire city by night. They wanted concentration and plentiful amounts.. and they got it!

As for tactical bombing- sorry to pop your bubble but the Mosquito and B-26 basically did nothing but precision tactical bombs. Bridges tanks roads and rail lines were their targets and usually from 8-15k. From the bombarding of St. Lo right to the end of the war B-26's roamed all over europe doing this work. The exception to the rule is the few carpet bomb strategic runs B-26's did and the pathmarker work mossies did for night raids. HELL- one of the most precise bombings EVER done was by a Mosquito in Denmark on the SS headquarters there. Below rooftop level along the main street of a city to drop bombs precisly into the basement of the building.

And as some1 else pointed out- Luftwaffe (and VVS too BTW) basically had only tactical bombers like the Ju-88 for most of the war. And even luftwaffe did away with dive bombers by 44 due to the excessive losses incurred trying to bomb targets this way. Planes like the PE-2 could smoke tanks from 8k with ease using 250lb bombs. A bridge was a no brainer.

But I agree on one thing for sure- after 25k your zoom is waaaay to good for bombing. By that height an AAA should be a pinsalamander and only hangers and bunkers definable in the norden.

[GrinBird]

Sorrow.. Mosquito was a divebomber! Or more correct a plane that was made for many different roles, fighterbomber, pure fighter lead bomber etc. The Shellhouse attack in Copenhagen was the one I referred to, and it was a divebombing attack, - a shallow dive down over the rooftops. You got something wrong here I would love to see the Mosquito and that kind of bombing in AcesHigh.
The same for all other kinds of bombers doing the same kind of job. The PE2 also the point is that that kind of bombing seems to be too difficult for the current Buff drivers since they wont have it.
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GrinBird


[This message has been edited by GrinBird (edited 08-25-2000).]

[juzz]

 

The PE2 also the point is that that kind of bombing seems to be too difficult for the current Buff drivers since they wont have it.

Uh, no - it's because the only bombers AH has are two US level bombers. It would be pretty hard to divebomb in a 37,000lb B-26B I should think. Although, I doubt you will see many Ju 88A-4 divebombing, even though they have divebrakes...

[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 08-25-2000).]

[Sparks]

Grin
I see your point and to an extent agree with it but I have to say keep the bombers for the moment. I am a pitiful fighter pilot and I suspect there are a few others out there too for whom, at the moment JABO is a one way ticket. As an example I took three loaded 38's in a attempt to hit two Panzers and crashed all three, I took a loaded to the gunnels 47 to a V base and got shot down by ack. For me buffing the bases is a big part of my fun in AH at the moment untill I get good enough to Jabo effectively. Cities and factories are frequently not a viable target due the range and DAR which means an hour spent climbing and cruising an be ruined by someone watching a counter and realising you're enroute to the city.
If I can't stand a reasonable chance of getting to a city or factory, there is no one on who wants to go with me anyway, I can't hit bases because it's not accurate enough and I'm not good enough to Jabo without getting killed why should I fly ?? Panzer instead ?? - the first F4U-1C to see you and 30 mins of driving down the pan.
I think the bombers play an important role as they are - lets see what the Lancaster brings first.

Sparks

[Suave1]

 

Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
In one sortie, myself and another pilot (both in P47s) took out a vBase (ack and hangar) and then an airfield (ack, vh, fh(2) and bh).  That's tough to do with any two bombers.

AKDejaVu


[This message has been edited by AKDejaVu (edited 08-24-2000).]

AKDejaVu, what you described would've taken 12,500 lbs of ordnance with no margin for error. 3,000 lbs for each a/c hangar, 2,000lbs for the vh at the Afield and 1,500lbs for the vh at the v field . You sure they weren't allready soft ?

[GrinBird]

Thnx for seeing my point Sparks  

I understand your point too. The realistic bomber gameplay shouldent be made without some adjustments to the gameplay, else the high altitude level bombing would lose its role, and nobody would fly the heavy bombers anymore.

IMHO the simplest way to keep an important role for eg. the B17 was to have a city in every square of the map. Imagine now that you have attacked an airbase without touching the city first. Then the ppl from the city would offcourse make sure that the airbase was repaired and got ressources back vry quick. But if the city was firebombed first, everybody would be busy to save the city first, and the damaged infrastructure would make it difficult to get ressources back quickly.
This change in gameplay would make it possible to give eg. the B17s realistic/historic accuracy, because even if you only hit with 44% of the bombs within a 1000 feet Square from 12,000 feets altitude you would still be able to start a firestorm in that city.

Making the heavy high altitude level bombing unfit (but still very important)for base captures, would also mean that the parameters involved in basecaptures could be made more realistic, and that would mean that taking a base with divebombing alone would be easier.

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GrinBird

[This message has been edited by GrinBird (edited 08-25-2000).]

[Tac]

The Buff Pilot's song:
 http://www.collectivecomputing.com/475th/WeFlyInThePurpleTwilight.wav

Take away those turbolasers, add Flak that will fire at any red plane above 27k with deadly accuracy and give blast damage to the bombs.

This will make buffs REAL usefull for what they were designed for, carpet bombing (or mass "precision" bombing.. which means carpet bombing in a smaller area, not this laser accuracy buffs have now) and give the (hopefully) soon to be added dive bombers their own niche.

They way I see it, a buff should fly in formation to survive with human gunners in it AND fighter escort (I remember some ball bearing plant in bavaria being attacked without fighter escort... black thursday!).

If they get to the target they should be allowed to do serious damage (tin hangars eating 2 or 3 1k bombs.. geez!). Fighter bombers and dive bombers would be the choice for "precision" tactical targets like ack, fuel and ammo dumps, while buffs would excel at spreading destruction over an area (read: cities or factories).

Right now buffs are just prop-driven F117's with that precision they got. Go figure!  

[jihad]

 

In WW2 B17s were used for firebombing cities, they couldent be used for closing airbases - they wasnt accurate enuf for that.

      Operation Jubilee <Dieppe Raid>

 Excerpt from JG 26 "Top Guns of the Luftwaffe" by Donald Caldwell.
 
At 1130, the closest major airfield to Dieppe, Abbeville-Drucat, was bombed by 24 Boeing B-17 Flying Fortresses of the American Eighth Bomber Command`s 97th Bomb Group.

 The raid coincided with the scheduled time of the British withdrawal from the beachhead. The B-17s made their bombing run from 23,000 feet. The flak defenses were alert and scored several hits,but no interceptions were made by German fighters which were fully occupied elsewhere.

 The British radio intercept service reported that the airfield was put out of action for several hours---

 

And to you Jihad.. I read my posts in this thread through once again.. I didnt find one single whine.

 Maybe not in this specific thread,but in another bomber related thread you were critical of the bomber guns model.

[This message has been edited by jihad (edited 08-25-2000).]

[ra]

If you are serious about taking a field, use jabos.  If you want to kill HQ, use buffs.

ra