Okay lets discuss the bombers role in AH gameplay!

[GrinBird]

I have now been a part of the AcesHigh community for allmost year, and I have experienced a lot of problems concerning the bombers in main arena.
Both in the arena and on this BBS there has been a lot of controversy about the balance between bombers and fighters during that time. Sometimes (in some of the versions)  it has been the bomberpilots who has been unhappy, - and sometimes (as it is now) it is the fighterpilots who are unhappy. Most of these discussions has been  about adjustments to the firepower of the bombers, but I think its no longer enough to discuss the subject at that level, we gotta look at the issue in a much wider perspective.   And that means we gotta look at bombers role in the overall gameplay in AcesHigh. If you wanna read on, you can as well get a beer and a comfy chair, because this post is gonna be huge    

I dont think its enough to discuss the gunnery balance of the heavy bombers in AH. I think that the cause of the problems is to be found in the role the bombers have in the gameplay. As it is now the bombers have two roles in AcesHigh :

1) A tactical role. The bombers are the fastet and most effective tool to shut down  bases.
 
2) A strategic role. The bombers can be used for bombing cities, factories and Headquarter. Bombing strategic targets will affect the enemys overall moral and abillity to fight on.

Lets discuss number 2 first. In WW2 the Bombers had a strategic role only. Many historians agree on that the strategic bombing was overestimated and wasnt really important in winning the war, but I think it is okay to make the strategic bombing important in AcesHigh, because it gives a good gameplay and dosent affect the realism in other areas. More of that later.

I consider the role in #1 as a big problem in AcesHigh, and even worse: I think the role has  a long row of implications thats distorts the gameplay and realism all over  the game. In WW2 B17s were used for firebombing cities, they couldent be used for closing airbases - they wasnt accurate enuf for that. They had trouble with hitting the right part of the city, and only by starting a firestorm they could do significant damage.

But for me the biggest problem with the bombers tactic role in AcesHigh is that they push a very importantant factor out of the gameplay, - namely the highprecision divebombing! In WW2 airbases were shut down by bombing and strafing from eg. Mosquitoes and Tiffies. In AcesHigh its not like that at all.
Even if a pilot or a whole squadron in AcesHigh specialized in hitting Hangars with fighterbombing they would never be able to compete with a B26 or a B17 because the game is adjustet so it all fits to the heavybombers. A Tiffie with 2 1000 lbs bombs cant even take a fighter hangar out, because the Hangars are adjustet after the B17s, and takes more bombs than a Tiffie can carry. Where is the realism in that? Hmm imagine yourself standing inside a Hangar while a Tiffie dropped a 500lbs bomb though the tin-roof! My main point is that the bombers in AH writes an important element out of the history. And the problem will get worse and worse as the game developes. Why attack a ship with torpedo carrying fighters if you can drop a 1000 lbs bomb right down the chimney from 10K with a B26?

My suggestion is that the Bombers role gets completely redefined. The strategic element in AcesHigh should be made more important, there should be more and bigger cities, factory areas etc.
The bombers role should be to gather a formation and escort,  and bomb these areas with firebombs and  drain the ressources of the enemy.
The game should be adjustet so we would see whole squadrons specialized in attacking airbases with  fighterbombers, the heavy bombers shouldn’t be able to hit a base enough to damage it, but could instead bomb the nearby city, so the enemy wouldent have infrastructure to rebuild their airbase right away.

I know that some would say that a strategic role for the bombers isnt fun enough to make ppl fly them. All I gotta say is: Well…. ppl have the choice, if they think its boring to bomb strategic targets then they can grab a Tiffie and attack an airbase with that. And if they don’t want to firebomb cities in AcesHigh then they also say that they are not interestet in a historical correct simulation of the B17. I am sure that after some time ppl with a genuine interest in a realistic B17-simulation  would find their way to AcesHigh, - find each other and start some real pretty formations of bombers with P51s as top cover. That’s what I would like to see.
I know it’s a hard job to learn the ACM needed for divebombing in a fighter but its fun, and ppl do still have the tanks to start up in, while they gain the needed fighter skill.

I think AcesHigh would be a much more fun game with these changes, and I think we would get rid of a lot of frustrations in main arena if  HTC changed the game this way.
I hope this post will give a good discussion, - because that’s why I wrote it.


------------------
GrinBird



[This message has been edited by GrinBird (edited 08-24-2000).]

[AKDejaVu]

They are called scenarios.  They are what you are looking for.

We could debate the real roles of all the aircraft in AH.  These aircraft aren't in the main arena to fight a war... they are there simply to fight.  Each plane has to have some level of contribution meritting the use of the aircraft.  The precision bombing of the buffs is about the only way to justify a 45 minute trip to HQ.

As for the P47 not taking down a hangar... next time you release the bomb, check and see how much ammo you have in those 8 .50's... and look at that additional 500 pound bomb... and those 8 rockets.  A P47 flow effectively can do more damage than any single bomber.

In one sortie, myself and another pilot (both in P47s) took out a vBase (ack and hangar) and then an airfield (ack, vh, fh(2) and bh).  That's tough to do with any two bombers.

AKDejaVu


[This message has been edited by AKDejaVu (edited 08-24-2000).]

[GrinBird]

Deja.... I was looking for a simulation and I thought I had found it in AcesHigh.

A game like Quake2  is based on a  story with its own logic. If you wanna adjust the gameplay, you can put in a double barreled freeze gun with poison titanium nails - no problem! - Because it fits fine into the story and universe that Quake2 is build on. - But that dosent mean that you can put anything in there! A Spitfire eg. would look very strange and distort the whole gameplay and internal logic of the game.
IMHO the difference between a game and a simulation, is that a game can be based on any story. It can be siencefiction pulpfiction, fantasy, D&D You name it!
A simulation is different from other kinds of games because it gotta be related some way to real life. And a historic sim like AH gotta be as closely related to the history as it was as posible. - Else its not a sim but just another game.

I want a simulation on all levels. I want the planes modelled right, I want the battles modelled right. I want to take bases as bases were taken in World War II. - With tanks,fighterbombers and strafing fighters.
I dont want to see Bombers overmodelled to make people fly them more, I dont want to see Bombers (which in real war couldent even hit a footballstadion from 10K) hit a 1*1 yard area with 100 % precision.

If you just want a game, and I want a sim then we do not want the same, and we gotta live with that.


Your point with the P47s I like very much because it shows how few adjustments to gameplay it would take to let divebombing replace the Highprecision B26 and B17s.



------------------
GrinBird

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
In one sortie, myself and another pilot (both in P47s) took out a vBase (ack and hangar) and then an airfield (ack, vh, fh(2) and bh).  That's tough to do with any two bombers.

AKDejaVu

Really?...dont think so.

2 bombers, one with 250lbs and other with 1000lbs.

The one with 250 kills the ack at the Vh and then both come down to straffe the VH. cost:2 250lbs. bombs left: 14 250lbs, 6 1000lbs.

Then they proceed (climbing) to an airfield. The 1000 pounder kills the Vh and one FH, the 250lbs kills the ack. Then they go down and straffe the airfield, killing the other FH, the BH and all structures.

Then they climb again and proceed to another VH, the 250lb B17 throws 2 bombs on ack and they straffe again.

And there would still be some 250lbs to throw elsewhere.

Try that with a P47.

Anyway, in a realistic simulator there is no place for pinpoint accuracy at 25K, that for sure.

[AKDejaVu]

That's BS ram.  Pure and simple.

2 B17's flying above ack.. then diving down to straff.. then climbing back up to get above it for the next base?  Maybe you have all day to take these two bases down?

And.. just how many rounds are you going to be able to pump into those hangars?

We had enough ammo to take everything down.. coulda probably cleaned up another vBase.  Oh.. and the fighter that came up wasn't really a problem either.

I know what I've done in a p47.  You say what you think "could" be done in a b17.  I think your theory is BS.

As far as what is/shouldn't be possible in a simulator... remember this is a game.  Respawning shouldn't be possible in a realistic sim... nor should any single aircraft capturing a base... nor should a low level run by a c47 in enemy territory without risk of enemy ground fire... nor should respawning to defend a base... nor should knowing excatly where to hit each and every base to shut down ack... nor should shutting down ack eliminate all posibility of ground fire... nor should 10 drunks being dropped over an enemy field just because ack is down... nor should being able to bomb a field without anyone realizing it... nor should flying all game with throttle wide open... nor should being able to set auto pilot then go to the rest-room... nor should being able to fly through friendly aircraft... nor should having a single keystroke start the engines.

All I know is that bombers in the arena are not the end-all be-all of anything.  If a pilot is willing to take an hour to get to alt in one.. only to be able to take out ack OR take down a couple of hangars.. then more power to them.  I'm more worried about the enemy fighters that may be in the area.  That is how it is... and that is how it should be.  Single unacompanied bombers are not a threat.

AKDejaVu  

[Cobra]

Actually, Jabo has a big role to play in AH, and alot of people use it.  You'll see more jabos than buffs IMO.

Not long ago the Musketeers...7 of us took down an Airbase in under 2 minutes with P-47's loaded with rockets.  That means ack, hangars and everything.  It can and has been done.  The knits do a very nice job of using Jabo on fields!

No 2 buffs can do that, and do it that quickly.

Also, Grinbird, I think you might be forgetting about the role that medium bombers played in taking down and strafing airfields (B-25 and B-26's with their forward firing machine guns and low-level bomb drops)

Cobra

 

[This message has been edited by Cobra (edited 08-24-2000).]

[Apache]

I agree with ya Cobra. I will put the VMF 323 up against 2 buffs on a field capture any day.

------------------
Apache
=XO= VMF-323 Death Rattlers
VMF 323 Death Rattlers Web Site

[GrinBird]

Sounds good Cobra and Apache. I suppose that it means that you have nothing against if heavy bombers were modelled for strategic bombing?
And Cobra I would like if you can give  some documentation on the B26 strafing you talk about. I would have nothing against B26s bombing and strafing that way if its historical correct. And that means that the bombs shall be placed and aimed the same difficult way as if you drop a bomb from a fighter. And that means that the pilot gotta have a feeling how fast the bomb will travel and how fast it will drop. In WW2 high precision bombers were made by divebombing, and other kinds of bombing could never be as precise as that. In AH its the other way round as it is now.


------------------
GrinBird

[Baddawg]

AKDejaVu,you are 100% correct IMO . The amount of damage 2 fully loaded  and properly flown P-47 s can do to a base is frightening.

 Let alone just 2 P-47s with just 3400rounds of ammo  individually.

 Jabo plays a big part in my AH game play.
So do large scale bombing attacks on a HQ.

But i know one thing for sure no bomber has pushed me out of the Jabo attack.
Maybe thats because I have been fortunate to link up with  a group of people who enjoy  Jabo as much as I do.

 Dang it Ram! You let the cat out of the bag. I was considering similar attacks like that once the Ju88 arrived.
   . But in a B17 hehe, not my cup of tea. But no doubt tactics like that are used , heck I even know some  guys who lone wolf Jabo a HQ.
 Peoples ingenuity in games /sims never cease to amaze me.

GrinBird here is some historical   crazy buff driving  
 From Peter Townsend  DUEL OF EAGLES

"In his Ju 88 bomber of Lehrgeschwader 1, Hans Joachim (Jocho) Helbrig roared off the ground just after 4 am, also heading for  Brest Litovsk. Suddenly he sighted a Polish fighter below. Helbig's hunting  instints got the better of him. He put the bomber into a dive  and tore down on the fighter while his observer and rear gunner poured bullets into it until its wings collapsed.
The observer Photographed the  wreckage.
 When Helbig  reported the combat to the Gefeechtsmeldung back at base no one would believe this tall story of a bomber attacking a  fighter. But Helbig had the photo proof  and Lehrgeschwader 1 recorded its first air victory."

So there it is.  Historical proof that the incredible did happen. There are lots of fantastic deeds and feats done by bombers  and their crews,they are just not as widely documented. Im sure if some one was well read enough or  did indepth research on buffs strafing . They would come out with more evidence that  things like this happened.

I wonder what the hapless Polish pilot thought when this German attacked him with a fully loaded JU88. But i  can say with  some degree of certainty that it was not  the Polish equivalent of  "DWEEB"
 
 




[This message has been edited by Baddawg (edited 08-24-2000).]

[jihad]

 I wish you guys would quit trying to neuter the bombers, a *lot* of people like to fly buff missions-but if you take away their accuracy you won`t see anymore of them,ditto for the "turbo laser" buff whines.

 Give us more buffs HTC!  

[GrinBird]

Good post Baddawg! I suppose you have nothing against if HTC models the Bombers into AcesHigh gameplay the way I suggestet?

And to you Jihad.. I read my posts in this thread through once again.. I didnt find one single whine. I made an analasys of how game follow the historic facts as it is now, and I made suggestions to how it could be made better. Thats not whining.
My point was that the high precision isnt needed if the bombers role were redefined to beeing strategic bombers. So the bombers would still have an important role, for the pilots who wants to fly a realistic simulation.
------------------
GrinBird

[This message has been edited by GrinBird (edited 08-24-2000).]

[CavemanJ]

For field capture JABO is the way to go.  I've seen the Musketeers handywork, and they're a pretty good act when they're hot.

I've flown with VMF 323 on field attacks, and I'm glad they're on our side.

I've helped organize and lead JABO strikes on fields that have taken a medium field completely down and ready for capture in 60 seconds or less.  Then we land, rearm/refuel (goon too), and head for the next base on our target list.  I'm sure many people can attest to how effective this tactic is when we get organized and really get on a roll.  Been many a night we Knights have blazed a trail across the map, taking 3, 4, or 5 bases (then cleaning up V fields) in a relatively short time.

Bombers, for the most part, have been relegated to use for hitting city/factorys (though tanks do a marvelous job at this), HQs, and large fields (though good JABO pilots can deack the field, even through the 88s, with proper tactics   ).
Oh yeah, and ackstarring for the dweebs.

[edited for typos =\]

[This message has been edited by CavemanJ (edited 08-24-2000).]

[Baddawg]

GrinBird I would love to see that type of bombing instituted by HTC. But.....
I dont think that at this time our computers are powerful enough to calculate and effectively display damage.
No doubt in time this will come ,just as clouds have started to arrive more and more in  flight sims. And have an effect on gameplay .

 The bombing you describe GrinBird will be part of the future of  ONLINE flight sims. Large scaled cities that can  be decimated  or have industrial areas to be hit. Growing fires ect  all of this combining strategicaly to  weaken the enemys resources.
Its coming  but unfortunately at this point in time we are going to have to wait.

Right now certain games have very complex physic engines, Some have a large world of individual destructable objects, Panzer Elite,
Or real world  gravity physics like
Myth the Fallen Lords ect

I for one am looking forward to B17 II, which might  turn out to  be the quintesential buff game but it might take a hog of  processor, and still  not give us the  hard core we want.

I think as each year passes we get closer to something that you describe. I want it now  but I resign myself to waiting.  Damit even if I get to be 95 years old I hope to be able to fire up my PXIII and  fly and fight in cyber WW2 ,and i will be able to tell my Grandchildren that i remember the time  In the year 2000 that I was able to hit an ack gun emplacement with one bomb from 20K+.
I can hear the laughter now.
 
 

[Jigster]

Said what I had to say in the other thread about buffs and gameplay.

I prefer Jabo runs over a B-26 or B-17 anyday.

strafe the ack, kill the VH, kill all the fuel, ammo, rader, and barracks with one P-47 and soften up the FH's while at it.

Show me a lone B-17 or a B-26 that can do that in under 5 minutes.

So...GB, what exactly do you think those forward firing MG's on the B-26 are for anyway  

And while the Norden was fairly accurate at up the 23k, the USAAF hit factories that were about the size of a football field on daily basis. More to do with who was programming the thing then sight itself. Oh well, your milage my vary. I'm still trying to figure how you got precision and dive-bombing put togather  

And RAM, how bout you and me hooking up to try your lil theory?

- Jig

[CavemanJ]

oops

[This message has been edited by CavemanJ (edited 08-24-2000).]