Author Topic: MT and the rest of Hillary lovers  (Read 2409 times)

Offline lazs2

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Re: MT and the rest of Hillary lovers
« Reply #75 on: July 23, 2008, 02:38:54 PM »
mt.. come on.. just a tiny bit of honesty on your part would be nice at this point..   I know toad..  I doubt he went apoplectic but..  I can imagine him almost choking with laughter at you using the term "letter of the constitution"

sooo.. try to be a tad honest here.. any president that mutilated the constitution as much as he did today.. you would be outraged.. and while we are being honest..  you have to admit that if it were a republican.. it would seem even more outrageous to you.

lazs

Offline midnight Target

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Re: MT and the rest of Hillary lovers
« Reply #76 on: July 23, 2008, 02:42:49 PM »
Which is why I mentioned hindsight in my post.

Maybe 150 years from now people will revere Bush II as the next Lincoln, but I doubt it.


Offline Elfie

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Re: MT and the rest of Hillary lovers
« Reply #77 on: July 23, 2008, 02:50:22 PM »
Quote
LMAO, where have you been, under a rock?

This is what I said in it's entirety.


Quote
Corruption should be rooted out and punished severely lest it become the norm.

This is what should happen, at no point do I say or imply that corruption doesn't exist or that it isn't rampant in our government today. If corruption was rooted out and punished severely it wouldn't magically cease to exist but it wouldn't become the norm either.

I'm guessing you completely misread my original statement the first time around. ;)
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Offline Toad

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Re: MT and the rest of Hillary lovers
« Reply #78 on: July 23, 2008, 03:08:24 PM »
Which is why I mentioned hindsight in my post.

Maybe 150 years from now people will revere Bush II as the next Lincoln, but I doubt it.




LOL!  Maybe after the 2nd American Revolution to Restore the Constitution, in 150 years Bush might be as reviled as Lincoln. 

But I doubt it.  :D
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Offline culero

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Re: MT and the rest of Hillary lovers
« Reply #79 on: July 23, 2008, 03:33:48 PM »
snip
And he didn't start the war, the South were the ones to fire the first shot in the Civil War.  Remember Fort Sumter?

ack-ack

He did start the war, by initiating hostile action at Fort Sumter.

South Carolina had withdrawn from the US, and asked the US to withdraw its forces from sovereign South Carolina soil. The US refused, declared its intention to maintain a military occupation of territory rightly belonging to South Carolina. South Carolina attempted to resolve the matter by negotiation up until the moment that the US sent more hostile forces to reinforce Fort Sumter, a de facto invasion by military force of South Carolina. South Carolina resorted to the use of force to defend its territory only at the last moment when the US invasion forces approached.

No southern state that seceded exhibited any intent to invade the north. Rather than attempt to resolve the dispute regarding secession peacefully through the Federal courts and/or diplomacy, Lincoln led the north in a war of aggression against the south.

Those are the bare facts, whether or not you choose to realize them.
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: MT and the rest of Hillary lovers
« Reply #80 on: July 23, 2008, 06:12:33 PM »


sooo.. try to be a tad honest here.. any president that mutilated the constitution as much as he did today.. you would be outraged.. and while we are being honest..  you have to admit that if it were a republican.. it would seem even more outrageous to you.

lazs

There is a difference between what Lincoln was going through and what our current Village Idiot is going through.  Last time I checked, we were not in the midst of a civil war.


ack-ack
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Offline Toad

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Re: MT and the rest of Hillary lovers
« Reply #81 on: July 23, 2008, 06:41:50 PM »
There is a difference between what Lincoln was going through and what our current Village Idiot is going through.  Last time I checked, we were not in the midst of a civil war.


ack-ack


Another difference is that Lincoln started a civil war.
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Offline Hangtime

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Re: MT and the rest of Hillary lovers
« Reply #82 on: July 23, 2008, 09:41:02 PM »

Another difference is that Lincoln started a civil war.

He wuz a scruffy anemic lookin bastid, too. Prolly strung out on snuff 'r sumthin...


.... just sayin.

:)
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Offline lyric1

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Re: MT and the rest of Hillary lovers
« Reply #83 on: July 23, 2008, 10:46:54 PM »
Corruption should be rooted out and punished severely lest it become the norm.
Too late.

Offline Chalenge

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Re: MT and the rest of Hillary lovers
« Reply #84 on: July 23, 2008, 11:22:17 PM »
I believe the framers of the Constitution foresaw there would be times when rights should be denied even the citizens the Constitution protects. In the Constitution, the writ of Habeas Corpus is mentioned once. The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it. (Art. 2 Sect. 9) The framers obviously condoned the suspension in periods of peril and Lincoln therefore followed the spirit of the Constitution the law and its original intent.

We can look further at each and every listed violation and you can list quite a number of them because this period in American history was very tumultuous and people throughout the country followed their beliefs without considering the legality or consequence. However I know Lincoln grieved deeply over every move in deep consideration of the citizens the states and leaders of the country. He did what he knew he must and did consider the law and followed the law closely. We are removed from that era by some 150 years and so I can understand that the details involved in that great conflict have been lost ignored and even rewritten to suit individual whims. There have been many writers over the span between then and now that have attempted to destroy the greatness that was our first martyr of the office of the Presidency. Today it has become accepted practice to criticize and smear people of character and attempt to bring them down verbally and in text. Lies have been told and the history rewritten to satisfy motives and agendas. All of these things cannot change the fact that Lincoln loved his country followed the letter of the law believed and upheld the Constitution and did so not lightly but with much grievance upon his heart. Lincoln no more wanted war than he wanted the Republic to fall. That you should believe otherwise and continue to respond as if Lincoln was some great violator of rights proves to me how far toward calamity this country has fallen from its founding fathers ideal.

I believe that had Lincoln survived office he would have soon after perished from the great weight his term had put upon him.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 11:24:56 PM by Chalenge »
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: MT and the rest of Hillary lovers
« Reply #85 on: July 24, 2008, 12:25:58 AM »

It says absolutely nothing about the Federal government having the power to use military force to coerce a State to REMAIN in the Union.


It doesnt have to Toad. What it does say in effect is that in extraordinary times the President (in the absence of a sitting Congress) can take upon himself such 'special' powers as are required to deal with whatever peril exists.

During the early stages of his term there were shootings and killings in the State of Maryland. Lincoln knew that if this sort of thing continued unabated that Maryland could very well secede. He acted quickly in the absence of Congress and Senate with the writ. Had Maryland fallen the very seat of Government would have been in enemy territory. You say this is illegal? Hardly. As I stated before this was covered in the Constitution and when Congress returned to session the writ was ratified. No illegality.

In the period before the return of Congress a Supreme Court judge insisted that this was a violation of the Constitution. There was no case before the court and the Justice was in fact acting out of sentiment for his home state. Lincoln ignored him. After all even though the Supreme Court has the duty to hand down decisions upon cases brought before it (even had this been a case) it is powerless to enforce its decisions. No illegality.

The South eventually invaded Maryland and played the state song as they marched about in the hope that they would appeal to a sense of secession. Their ploy failed in whole because of Lincolns action with the writ. An act for which Congress ratified the decision. No illegality.

Spies were about the country. They moved within the forces of our own government and military. It was impossible to determine who was friend and who was foe. Lincoln empowered the Pinkerton firm to  act as a Secret Service under the Legislative Branch. This too could be seen as an excessive use of office and many voices were heard in argument against such an organization. Congress thought otherwise and granted funds as needed. No illegality.

Today it is excepted that a Senator Congressman newspaperman or citizen can criticize a sitting President any time they like (upon foreign soils for instance). Not only is this a bad idea it is illegal and a form of treason. People today refuse to use the term but treason it is especially in a time of war. That people had their rights stripped from them and that individuals were deported for treason should be no surprise. Today of course we allow treasonous actions (Jane Fonda Al Gore and John Kerry just to name a few). All three and Pelosi too should be locked away in a Fort McHenry-like place and it wouldnt be illegal.

(Fort McHenry held newspapermen Congressmen and even a Judge during the war; not to mention other people awaiting their execution).
« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 12:29:23 AM by Chalenge »
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: MT and the rest of Hillary lovers
« Reply #86 on: July 24, 2008, 12:33:14 AM »

Another difference is that Lincoln started a civil war.

This is utter nonsense.
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Offline Rolex

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Re: MT and the rest of Hillary lovers
« Reply #87 on: July 24, 2008, 03:32:05 AM »
It is not utter nonsense.

I can understand how difficult it is to accept any challenge to the comic book version of Lincoln that has been embedded for 150 years. People are repulsed at the idea he was not a god. Accepting the myth is a much easier path.

One by one, people on their own are discovering that he could not have cared less about slavery - he cared about his political future and was in favor of shipping slaves back to Africa. He did not care about upholding the Constitution, the document or the intent - he cared about expanding federal power. He did not care about the law, he wanted all opposition stifled, going so far as to have a newspaper editor exiled out of the country in a technique copied communists, fascists and 3rd-world dictators.

I noticed your distaste of criticism. Criticism and critical thinking are good, in my opinion. Uneven or poorly constructed criticism gets weeded out naturally, but truthful and honest criticism stops governments from propping up false idols for false worship. To hold back truthful criticism is treason.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 03:34:12 AM by Rolex »

Offline moot

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Re: MT and the rest of Hillary lovers
« Reply #88 on: July 24, 2008, 04:00:18 AM »
In fact it should be favored and spurred on at every opportunity, lest government grow fat and ...
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Offline Elfie

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Re: MT and the rest of Hillary lovers
« Reply #89 on: July 24, 2008, 04:23:54 AM »
Too late.

It might be to late for it to not be the norm, but it is never to late to start rooting it out and punishing those who are guilty. Somehow I doubt that will happen though.
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