MT and the rest of Hillary lovers

[lasersailor184]

As I said before the Declaration does not in itself establish government. Lincoln was duly elected and it was his duty to defend the Constitution that was the basis of this government. No one of the Confederacy was duly elected of the U.S. and the states in secession were attempting the establishment of a Confederacy.

I would LOVE it if Bush acted in the same manner.

Listen, I know this will be hard for you.  The constitution ONLY APPLIES to states in the Union.  It does not apply to france.  It does not apply to Romania.  It applies to the United States.

Should those states leave that union, they are no longer in breach of contract for forming a confederacy.  However, every state still in that union is not allowed to form a confederacy.


No where in the constitution does it say that secessionists should be hunted down.  No where does it say that the United States should aggressively recruit foreign entities at the point of a gun.  This is basically what you are saying.  That it was Lincoln's duty to attack a foreign country and make it part of the united states.

[Toad]

Lincoln was duly elected and it was his duty to defend the Constitution that was the basis of this government.

Please quote the part of the Constitution that clearly says a State cannot withdraw from the Union. Your argument about joining a confederacy has already been shown as a red herring. The States withdrew from the union (secession) before they joined any confederacy.

This may be of some help to you in your search:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively

All you have to do now is find where the Constitution delegates to the Federal government the power to force a State to remain in the Union. Please let me know when you find it.

[midnight Target]

Well, if the basis for the Constitution is to form a more perfect union, it is necessarily a living document, or it could never adapt to try to achieve more perfection. It is also a contract and as such the breaking of that contract must be agreed upon by all of those involved.

[AKIron]

Well, if the basis for the Constitution is to form a more perfect union, it is necessarily a living document, or it could never adapt to try to achieve more perfection. It is also a contract and as such the breaking of that contract must be agreed upon by all of those involved.

Of course it's a living document. The process whereby it may be changed is clearly defined. Reinterpretation by courts or the executive branch is not part of the process.

[indy007]

I don't think you can actually be "more perfect". You're either perfect, or you're imperfect. There's not really a gray area there.

[Toad]

It is also a contract and as such the breaking of that contract must be agreed upon by all of those involved.

The 10th Amendment contradicts your hypothesis MT.

Again, if you'll be kind enough to show me the part of the Constitution that expressely delegates to the Federal government the power to use military force to coerce a State to remain in the Union, I'd be most appreciative.

As Laser pointed out, the document declaring our Independence from Britain states that, "it is the Right of the People" to change or alter a government that does not suit them.

As we have seen, Rights are inherent and have no dependence on the Federal government. Rights cannot be granted; they pre-exist ANY form of government. It is the People that grant powers to their government. Government is subservient to the will of the People.

I know that's considered radical thinking now.... it was in Jefferson's time as well.

[Chalenge]

Laser I dont know where you get off thinking things are difficult for me just because I cant reach you.

In Article IV, Section 4 - The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

Lincoln saw this as his mandate to hold the states together in the Union as a Republic. The issue of the war was always about states rights and not slavery. States cease to be legal entities when they engage in illegal activities such as attempting to leave the Union firing on Union forces and such. It was always Lincolns will that held the Nation together and people of the time held Lincoln in high esteem or contempt depending upon their loyalties. Obviously I feel Lincoln was justified n his actions and you and a few others disagree. I will always believe you are wrong.

[Chalenge]

I am loth to close. We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battlefield, and patriot grave, to every living heart and hearthstone, all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature - Abraham Lincoln

[Toad]

In Article IV, Section 4 - The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

That says that IF A STATE IS IN THE UNION the Feds will guarantee a Republican form of government.

It says absolutely nothing about the Federal government having the power to use military force to coerce a State to REMAIN in the Union.

Again, inherent rights supercede all government dicta and regulation. You will recall that Rights are unalienable. Again, the powers (not the Rights) of ANY government derive from the people. The government has no power that the People have not expressly given it.

The People NEVER gave the Federal government the right to militarily coerce a State to remain in the Union.

[lasersailor184]

Sometimes the world doesn't seem so dark to me.  I'm glad that other people do understand this.


Chalenge, you keep quoting Lincoln like it means something.  It does not.  Of course he would say what he believes.  He would say what he thinks is true.  He wouldn't come out and openly state that he does not have the right to rejoin the union, then do it anyway.

[midnight Target]

OK, so your point is that Lincoln was a bad POTUS because he didn't follow the letter of the law regarding the constitution. I get it.

So what?

Buchanan never strayed from the constitution, was he the greatest? Is that the real measure of greatness in leadership?

Lincoln saved the union. He went so far as to appoint his enemies in cabinet posts so that he could get a diverse set of recommendations from them. He provided incredible leadership when our country needed it most. As far as sticking to the letter of the law... in hindsight I say so freakin what?

[Toad]

Jeebus CRIPES! The letter of the Constitution?

The LETTER?

He used it for toilet paper!

He was so far out of bounds, he wasn't on the same continent as the playing field.

If Ee3v33I111 BOOOSH had done have that stuff, all liberals would be dead by now, having expired from apoplexy.

[SkyRock]

lest it become the norm.

LMAO, where have you been, under a rock?

[midnight Target]

Jeebus CRIPES! The letter of the Constitution?

The LETTER?

He used it for toilet paper!

He was so far out of bounds, he wasn't on the same continent as the playing field.

If Ee3v33I111 BOOOSH had done have that stuff, all liberals would be dead by now, having expired from apoplexy.

speaking of apoplexy .. lol

[Toad]

Jeez, I have to wonder if you'd be so admiring of a President that 'saved' you from the right to speak your mind or that 'saved' you from the right from unreasonable searches and seizures.

Oh well... what's arresting and exiling a Representative just because he spoke against your policy. A mere trifle; pay it no mind.

And civilians tried before military courts? Well sure, it smacks of a military dictatorship but that's just because we don't understand how lovingly the courts tried them.

Then you've got FDR rounding up all the Japanese and imprisoning them for... being Japanese. We can certainly excuse that if we can excuse Lincoln.

We should just keep turning a blind eye to the usurpation of power by the Federal government as they whimsically deny the rights of ourselves and our fellow citizens.

I should become one with the Federal Borg I guess.