Unofficial Trainers - Read This Please

[Vudak]

I don't "work" any way but to offer my unbiased opinion.  Sometimes it agrees, sometimes it disagrees and I personally don't care whether YOU agree with it or not.  It's my opinion and I'm entitled to it.

I did start by saying I applauded the effort.  On the surface it's a good idea and I was tempted to add my name but as I thought about that I realized that deeper in there were inevitable issues.

Hey BaldEagl, you're certainly entitled to offer your unbiased opinion and I certainly didn't have any issue with the way you said it <S>.

I will remark that though we all know who the good sticks are in what (well, I don't in a few aircraft), just from my perspective the past four years it has at times felt like a hit or miss situation running into one that is also available at my times, willing to help at my times, etc. 

I figured the idea had some good points, you pointed out some bad points.  I don't know too many ideas that hit the ground running from the first concept.  Most are revised/edited/changed/etc.  This could certainly use some.  At the same time, it's a tool I'd like to have for myself, in some form, in the future.

<S> and thanks for your thoughts

[Steve]

If. Among the reasons I have declined is being a channel 200 rant monkey, .

Dang! I had hoped you would teach me the 38...

[evenhaim]

If that is to be the case, I'd like to remove my name from the list. Frankly, if I have to go through that many hoops to take on a single student at a time, I might as well just apply for regular trainer status instead. The reason I'm not interested in regular trainer status is the fact they have to float from student to student and you don't see the progression of the student (ie improvement) on a daily basis. The most rewarding thing is seeing someone's confidence build and telling you, "That move you showed me yesterday really helped me in the MA!" If someone doesn't think I'm qualified to help them learn the P38, then by all means, don't ask me.

I get a lot of PMs asking for help with the P38, if someone is serious about learning it and has flown it for some time, generally I'll help them. Among the reasons I have declined is; inability to listen, being a channel 200 rant monkey, and I don't feel qualified to teach mouse flyers.

I tend to get a few pms for guys I just killed on how to teach them the 109s and all I do is just point em in the direction of agent because altough we may use the same acm hes a far better and more vocal teacher than I, same goes for bovi,air,tex

[hlbly]

Having read the latest replies, I think my original idea could have used several revisions and a few more nights' sleep.  I say this because I'm getting the feeling that some are looking at this as though I was implying we should start a "supplemental" or "unofficial" trainer "program..."  Obviously, one can just look at the thread's title, and see that I messed up right there.

I used the phrase, "Unofficial Trainer" on the merit of it being a short way to say "Hey you guys that regularly help out people instead of telling them to wander off - read this please!" That was a big mistake.

Steve did nail it though, the whole idea is just to have a way that those of us who do help out unofficially could know who each other are, for the purposes of being able to refer guys to others that can help them out...

For example, I was in the 475th for about a year.  I've winged with some excellent P-38 sticks, and if someone asked me who was a good one, I could go on and on and on.  But if someone asked me, "Well who will teach me it?" ...  My list is all of a sudden very short.  Before this thread, I did not know that Del was willing to do it.  Now I do, and can pass on that knowledge without feeling as though I'm imposing something on him.

I did think about the possibility that some people would overestimate or misinterpret their own abilities, but at the same time, I was looking at this as a "Referral Service..."  I'm not going to ever refer a guy to a lawyer based on that lawyer's ad...  I'm going to refer a guy to a lawyer based on what I've personally seen that lawyer do.  I kind of figured the same would apply here.

---

As far as there actually being an "official" unofficial trainer role...  Well, that kind of defeats the whole spirit of this thing in my eyes, and personally, I know I wouldn't want to be put in that sort of role, for various reasons.  The more I think about it, the less I like the idea in general.  Just look at what a few kills does to channel 200...  A possible "hire" for *any* official role in HTC, even as just something like a student teacher, should always, always, always be a "We'll call you" situation.

The whole idea is to give everyone a list of people they can call.  The trainers can, if they want, call in a guy to help demonstrate something.  The guys slugging it away helping newbies in the DA can refer them to people who they personally know could help them in things they themselves can't do.  The newbies could at least know which people are going to say, "Sure, I have a minute," and not just "RTFM" (or worse).

Basically, it's just the thought of organizing what is already going on - and I still think that's a prudent idea.  Not to be a tinfoil hat guy, but when I said that I think Combat Tour will be a grand success, I meant financially for HTC.  In terms of average player skill and helper/helpee ratio, it will be a complete and total disaster.  You think summer's bad?  Just wait

Ok want to add one more point in favor of this . Vudak sought me out in the DA and has spent a considerable amount of time helping me . I dont know where he would rank in your system , but let me say this . I started a thread about how to fight F4U v Spits . I got some  great answers that in fact helped me . I stopped committing the same old mistakes . Letting them pop me from a zoom climb while I was trying to rope was one in particular . Vudak spent a few hours 1v1'ing me F4U-1a against my beloved Mk. IX . Now guys who regularly beat me need an advantage to do so most of the time <not talking guys like mntman or Vudak> . Now when I see a Corsair my first thought is not " where is my line of retreat" . It is "okay lets remember what we learned and make them fight our fight" . One other slightly funny aspect of Vudaks help is this . I no longer think in my head "dam dam dam please dont let it be a stinkin lousy rotten -1c" it is more like "if I am lucky it isn't one of those -1a's" . The point is this Vudak had to seek me out , I can't be the only fresh meat that wants to improve . A way to help us green peas identify the Vudaks of this community would help greatly . On a more personal side Vudak sorry my dsl router took a giant dump took me a few hours to get a new one . I am way anxious to continue with the 2 other Mks. of spittys we started on the other day . <S> to you all .

[Captfish]

I just wanted to add a few things just because you are a good stick does not make you a good trainer. There is a certain art form to teaching and most people don't have have it. I have trained with both trainers and unofficial trainers and the biggest difference I see is the lack of teaching abilities, The trainers do a great job of getting there point across, showing an example and most important keeping the students attention. I have noticed with the "unofficial trainers" that they are not as good at this, I see people that just read out a printed description of ACM to the guy, That is not training, it reading to someone. Yes they have the knowledge, but they just don't know how to explain/teach it correctly. I have worked with Ren, Rolex, and Murdr at this point and all of them were very good at the teaching part of being a trainer. They speak well, they become engaged with their student, they pick up on the students weaknesses and evolve their lesson plan around them to accommodate. Next, Public Speaking, here is the biggest down fall of most unofficial trainers, They have little to no public speaking skills, they end up just mumbling on nonstop in one long run on sentence.
Someone is going to need to write up the "Unofficial Trainers Official Training Guide".I think if you really go through with the "unofficial trainers" you need them to read some sort of trainers training manual, A guide to teaching ACM if you will. Perhaps the trainers have one they would share.
 I do applaud the effort as i see many many aimlessly wondering pilots in the TA, and MA for that matter. I just hope the people involved take the time to learn how to be a trainer, and take the job as seriously as the trainers do and with the same level of dedication.
 

[Zylber]

Call Sign: Zylber
General Location/Times Available: depends on the day.
Preferred Contact Method: BBS Private Message
Online Flight Sim Experience: 2 years.
Preferred Aircraft: Bf 109 (any model), Bf 110 G2, Ju 87.
Can Teach Topics: dive-bombing, bomber-intercepting.
Teaching Method: MA observer or wingman
Can Teach Skill Level(s): Beginner.

[Yossarian]

So far, the people that I've seen filling in the 'form' for this seem to be pretty much 'OK', as in they don't appear to be the sort of players who would apply for this knowing that they're not qualified to do so.

Whilst I know and accept that this isn't my call, in my opinion this programme should be given a trial run, and then a final decision be made in future as to whether to continue or not.  If it is tried out, then I'd recommend using everyone who has applied so far, having the official trainers schedule TA appointments with these people, and ensure that each of us is 'qualified' to teach whatever we've applied to teach.  Then, an official trainer could write up a quick list of bullet points for how to teach, and very general things about each topic area, and then everyone who was accepted would then go ahead and try and help new players.

Just my $0.02,
<S>

Yossarian

[RATTFINK]

I just wanted to add a few things just because you are a good stick does not make you a good trainer. There is a certain art form to teaching and most people don't have have it. I have trained with both trainers and unofficial trainers and the biggest difference I see is the lack of teaching abilities, The trainers do a great job of getting there point across, showing an example and most important keeping the students attention. I have noticed with the "unofficial trainers" that they are not as good at this, I see people that just read out a printed description of ACM to the guy, That is not training, it reading to someone. Yes they have the knowledge, but they just don't know how to explain/teach it correctly. I have worked with Ren, Rolex, and Murdr at this point and all of them were very good at the teaching part of being a trainer. They speak well, they become engaged with their student, they pick up on the students weaknesses and evolve their lesson plan around them to accommodate. Next, Public Speaking, here is the biggest down fall of most unofficial trainers, They have little to no public speaking skills, they end up just mumbling on nonstop in one long run on sentence.
Someone is going to need to write up the "Unofficial Trainers Official Training Guide".I think if you really go through with the "unofficial trainers" you need them to read some sort of trainers training manual, A guide to teaching ACM if you will. Perhaps the trainers have one they would share.
 I do applaud the effort as i see many many aimlessly wondering pilots in the TA, and MA for that matter. I just hope the people involved take the time to learn how to be a trainer, and take the job as seriously as the trainers do and with the same level of dedication.
 

I think CaptFish should become a trainer.

[2bighorn]

So far, the people that I've seen filling in the 'form' for this seem to be pretty much 'OK', as in they don't appear to be the sort of players who would apply for this knowing that they're not qualified to do so.

Whilst I know and accept that this isn't my call, in my opinion this programme should be given a trial run, and then a final decision be made in future as to whether to continue or not.  If it is tried out, then I'd recommend using everyone who has applied so far, having the official trainers schedule TA appointments with these people, and ensure that each of us is 'qualified' to teach whatever we've applied to teach.  Then, an official trainer could write up a quick list of bullet points for how to teach, and very general things about each topic area, and then everyone who was accepted would then go ahead and try and help new players.

It's not a program and no applications are accepted...

Just see it as yellow pages of sort.

[Captfish]

I think CaptFish should become a trainer.

I will help a Noob anytime, and can often be found in the TA, But I will remain and indepent at this time as I have no time to commit.
 Babysitting the squad has me busy

[Yossarian]

It's not a program and no applications are accepted...

Just see it as yellow pages of sort.

Well, I was speaking hypothetically.

[Mighty01]

OK, some of you are sort of misleading here.
If you say you can teach advanced level, be ready that those with advanced skills will come to you to improve on some aspects.
Adonai, do you think you could show some new tricks in angles fighting to those considered to be at advanced skill level?
Bosco, same for you in E fighting.
 

I believe it is safe to say, 2bighorn is a player that most of the players and possibly most every good quality stick-old vet would listen to and stand with when a judgement call is made. Here he has pointed out the very problem with how some claim to be alot more than they actually are.

Good Examples of  People Offering their services and who are being modest or very modest in their capabilities to help Teach:

Good Example #1

Call Sign: Vudak
BBS Handle: Vudak
General Location/Times Available: Eastern USA, Evenings
Email: Vudak   at   yahoo   .   com
Preferred Contact Method: BBS Private Message

Online Flight Sim Experience: Began flying AW in ’98, AH in ’04. 
Preferred Aircraft: F4U Corsair, all models.
General Style: Aggressive Angles Fighter.
Can Teach Topics: Basic to intermediate 1v1, Corsair tips & tricks.
Teaching Method: TA or DA practice with email review.
Can Teach Skill Level(s): Beginner to intermediate.  Can generally hold my own vs. advanced, but can’t promise you’ll end up being the student.

Good Example #2

Call Sign: Delirium
BBS Handle: Delirium
General Location/Times Available: EST- but I work nights, I can move my time online around as needed
Email: only given to repeat students
Preferred Contact Method: PM via the forums
Online Flight Sim Experience: I was in AirWarrior in 1993 and served as a trainer there, I've been in AH since 2000/2001
Preferred Aircraft: P38J
General Style: Both Boom and Zoom, and Turn and Burn, the P38 has to choose, depending on the target
Can Teach Topics: P38 centric fighting only, no GVs, no Jabo
Teaching Method: An exchange of films to review, TA, and 1v1s
Can Teach Skill Level(s): Intermediate to Advanced

note- I will only teach students serious about learning the P38 over a minimum of 3 sessions. You must have a joystick, fly with stall limiter off, and be at least as mature as I am. A throttle, pedals, and a microphone are a plus but not necessary.

Other  Good Examples who did not fill out the form, but offered their respected by the community views

2bighorn
humble

Now - The Bad Examples of  People Offering their services and who are fivorously exaggerating about their capabilities to help Teach:
Bad Example #1

Call Sign: Adonai
BBS Handle: Adonai
General Location/Times Available: Florida, Tampa 1pm - 5pm EST
Email: adonai @ jagdgeschwader7.com
Preferred Contact Method: aim - misconduc or email

And then with some more specific information:

Online Flight Sim Experience: 11 years
Preferred Aircraft: Me109k4
General Style: Furballer
Can Teach Topics: Angles, BnZ, Energy, GV, Level Bombing, Jabo, 1v1, 1v2
Teaching Method: TA and Main arena (wingman)
Can Teach Skill Level(s): Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced

^ claims 11 years online flight sim experience, claims can teach intermediate & Advanced, yet in reality is looked at as average , middle of the ladder

Bad Example #2

Call Sign: McWatt
BBS Handle: Yossarian
General Location/Times Available: London, UK (timings will vary A LOT - sometimes almost all day, other times rarely ever)
Email: see PMs, please
Preferred Contact Method: PM and e-mail if possible

And then with some more specific information:

Online Flight Sim Experience: Microsoft FS2000, then FS2004 for a few years, then FSX for a week or two (computer not good enough for it), and now Aces High for maybe a year
Preferred Aircraft: B-25H, Spitfires, T-bolts
General Style: Do whatever I can (within reason) to get a kill or two.  Sometimes I get a few kills a night, other times none.
Can Teach Topics: GV, Level Bombing, Jabo, B-25ing, take-offs and landings
Teaching Method: TA, E-mail, MA sorties.  And what Dichotomy said, being patient etc.
Can Teach Skill Level(s): Beginner

  not really a bad offering or claim, but not much background in a multiplayer online WWII combat flight Sim....he is being more truthful than most others though

Bad Example #3

Call-sign:  Banshee7
BBS Handle:  DickBong
General Location/Times Available:  CST  usally midday or later in the evening, mostly late night
E-mail:  ahbanshee7         at        yahoo  .   com
Preferred Contact Method:  BBS Private message
Online Flight Sim Experience:  AH since March 2007
Preferred Aircraft:  P-38 lightning (can fly most all planes to some extent)
General Style:  TnB with a mix of E fighting
Can Teach Topics:  1v1 fighting, Jaboing, P-38 tips
Teaching Method:  Training Arena with final test being DA
Can Teach Skill Level(s):  Beginner to Intermediate.  I dont like dealing with complete clueless n00bs and, some say im modest, my skill level isn't good enough for "advanced" sticks

does not want to help noobs , only been flying lil over a year, and have seen him complain of being ejected from the Training Arena on several occassions from being uncooperative with the Trainers and being disruptive.
I read on this forum awhile ago that the Trainers prefer people to have a minimal 3 years in game, to have a good grasp of the knowledge of all aspects of the game, and to have good reputation with the community.
As Steve said this is a good idea but it does have some flaws which were very apparent to show up in less than 30 replys posted to this thread.

IF anything Vudak, Karaya, 2bighorn,  would be considered for whatever Murdr & TC mentioned that the Trainers & HTC have in the plans for the upcoming  Combat Tour. for the rest of it, I would  just use this as 2bighorn stated, an yellow pages of sorts to find other good quality people who are willing to offer quality help.


the original "Mighty01"

[pervert]

Now thats a comprehensive 'ouch' lololololololololololol 

[A8TOOL]

^ claims 11 years online flight sim experience, claims can teach intermediate & Advanced, yet in reality is looked at as average , middle of the ladder


the original "Mighty01"

Good post but I think you made a mistake on your evaluation of Adonia. I have not flown with him as a wingman or am really friends with him but have in fact followed in his path of destruction plenty being Rook. I know he can kill in most any plane but more importantly have seen him in the TA on more than one occasion helping noobs. I even asked him a few questions myself that he was able to answer in detail for me and benefited from that advice. He shows a strong interest in sharing what he knows.

I'd also like to point out that he has made plenty of posts in the Help and Training area taking time to post many films for people to watch. I would consider him an advanced player and a patient teacher from my one experience but you would need at least a few months in game and a strong basic knowledge of tactical maneuvers to understand what he is talking about.... Plus sometimes he sounds like he has to much chew in his mouth at times so you'll have to pay extra attention.

[Delirium]

I'm still waiting to hear if the Trainers are going to be involved in this, could one of them chime in?