Unofficial Trainers - Read This Please

[Zazen13]

lol Zaz, what the hell does that actualy mean??    sometimes ya can use too many words to describe something simple. Are you saying they are both part of dogfighting and practicing one exclusively is foolhardy? no flame here sir you know you have my respect, i honestly have no clue what you are saying

You got it, that was as concise as I could make it. I've always been of the mind that using 1 perfect word to describe something is better than 5 imperfect ones, even if the 1 word has 7 syllables.

Just add that once you're stallfighting, full flaps, riding the horn like a disgruntled camel jockey, E fighting/management ceases to exist and angles are all that matters because you have no E other than the bare minimum to keep your plane from pancaking.

[2bighorn]

and angles are all that matters

Isn't that valid for just about any fight? How else can you shoot other guy?

[DoNKeY]

Just add that once you're stallfighting, full flaps, riding the horn like a disgruntled camel jockey, E fighting/management ceases to exist and angles are all that matters because you have no E other than the bare minimum to keep your plane from pancaking.

Well... now that may be pushing it.  You will always have to manage your E (in order to gain angles), especially in this situation.  If both pilots are "stallfighting, full flaps, riding the horn like a disgruntled camel jockey... and have "no E other then the bare minimum to keep [their] plane from pancaking," and assuming the same plane for each pilot, then no angles would be gained, and E management would then become exponentially more important.

[Zazen13]

Isn't that valid for just about any fight? How else can you shoot other guy?

Bighorn, I am at a complete loss at how to explain abstract concepts to you. Nothing I tell you makes any sense to you and nothing you tell me makes any sense to me. So, rather than waste both our time typing and getting frustrated I'm not going to even try...

PS: Truncating quotes for effect so you can more easily take what I say out of context doesn't help either.

[Zazen13]

Well... now that may be pushing it.  You will always have to manage your E (in order to gain angles), especially in this situation.  If both pilots are "stallfighting, full flaps, riding the horn like a disgruntled camel jockey... and have "no E other then the bare minimum to keep [their] plane from pancaking," and assuming the same plane for each pilot, then no angles would be gained, and E management would then become exponentially more important.

You are right no angle will be gained if they both are stallfighting perfectly. That's why stallfights often last so long and are bushwhacked so much in the MA. Stallfights boil down to who makes a mistake and "fails" to "ride the edge" as effectively as the other. Once someone "gets off the edge" the other is going to get lead and it's over. I filmed a stallfight I had once. It lasted over 17 mins just from the point we both became E bankrupt (it felt like an hour). I finally made a mistake, lost the edge and pancaked. We never got a shot on each other the entire time. Had I not messed up it could have possibly lasted 3 hours or more. Neither of us had the E to do anything other than hang onto the edge for dear life.

[2bighorn]

Bighorn, I am at a complete loss at how to explain abstract concepts to you. Nothing I tell you makes any sense to you and nothing you tell me makes any sense to me. So, rather than waste both our time typing and getting frustrated I'm not going to even try...

PS: Truncating quotes for effect so you can more easily take what I say out of context doesn't help either.

OK here's the full quote, and before you become frustrated, let me tell you that I do not distinguish between E and angles fighting.
In every fight I use BFMs and manage E. I convert E into angles as needed. How much and how quickly, depends on the situation. If the fight deteriorates down to stall speeds and I ran out of E, I'll have to regain some back or I'll die. Hence E management in stall fight.

That's how I see it.

[Zazen13]

. If the fight deteriorates down to stall speeds and I ran out of E, I'll have to regain some back or I'll die. Hence E management in stall fight.

You have a nasty fatalistic streak, try not to be so pessimistic. Why would you automatically die if you run out of E and your opponent is also out of E? You would just be stallfighting at that point and equally matched...Do you have the stall limiter on?

[2bighorn]

You have a nasty fatalistic streak, try not to be so pessimistic. Why would you automatically die if you run out of E and your opponent is also out of E? You would just be stallfighting at that point and equally matched...Do you have stall limiter on?

Firstly because it's about kill or be killed (that what air combat is about, or so I was told) and secondly it's smart not to count on other's guy mistake.

As for the stall limiter, I'll have to check that one.

[Zazen13]

Firstly because it's about kill or be killed (that what air combat is about, or so I was told) and secondly it's smart not to count on other's guy mistake.

As for the stall limiter, I'll have to check that one.

I think it defaults to on and that could be the source of your despair in that regard.

I find at least the majority of my fights are decided purely by exploiting the mistakes of my opponent (as opposed to just a great shot or simply outflying him). Air combat is a check and balances system, for every move there is an ideal counter-move. Unless someone makes a mistake at some point no one would ever get killed theoretically. Sometimes your only choice is to wait for the other guy to make a mistake because he is really good at perfectly countering every pro-active thing you try to do. Or, as in my stallfighting example, you have both run out of Energy, therefore options, to be proactive, in which case the loser is absolutely always the first one to make a mistake.

[SuBWaYCH]

I'll throw my name into the hat.


Call Sign: SubwayCH
BBS Handle: SubwayCH
General Location/Times Available: Usually available past 10 o'clock most nights (until probably late August, then school kicks back in)
Email: Pm me for it please.
Preferred Contact Method: Private message on BBS/Email.

Online Flight Sim Experience: Started at tour 75, which is around 2 years or so. I"m only 13 years old, so if your looking for a more mature trainer, look at some of the other posts in this thread. All of them can be a great help.
Preferred Aircraft: Yak-9U/Yak-9T/FM2/F4F are my main ones. I can really teach anything though. Yak-9U is my true specialty, so if your looking for help in this, I could help you.
General Style: TnB (Turn and Burn). I like having fights up close and personal.
Can Teach Topics: TnB, Landing (something I can say i"m very good at).
Teaching Method: DA/TA mainly.
Can Teach Skill Level(s): Beginner's.

Hope this is a help to 1st time players.

[jerkins]

This lively discussions brings out some very good information.  I find myself agreeing and disagreeing frequently, but i think most of this comes down to style.  Some people put their right leg into the pants first, others their left.

[Zazen13]

This lively discussions brings out some very good information.  I find myself agreeing and disagreeing frequently, but i think most of this comes down to style.  Some people put their right leg into the pants first, others their left.

Nicely put. The fun is encouraging another to explain his perspective to the point you can visualize it and play it out a lot like Einstein did with his thought experiments. Nothing is more powerful than looking through another's eyes to expand your conceptual horizons. If more people in the world did this maybe we wouldn't be so hellbent and determiend to kill each other.

[DoNKeY]

You are right no angle will be gained if they both are stallfighting perfectly. That's why stallfights often last so long and are bushwhacked so much in the MA. Stallfights boil down to who makes a mistake and "fails" to "ride the edge" as effectively as the other. Once someone "gets off the edge" the other is going to get lead and it's over. I filmed a stallfight I had once. It lasted over 17 mins just from the point we both became E bankrupt (it felt like an hour). I finally made a mistake, lost the edge and pancaked. We never got a shot on each other the entire time. Had I not messed up it could have possibly lasted 3 hours or more. Neither of us had the E to do anything other than hang onto the edge for dear life.

Then maybe you're approaching dueling in the wrong fashion.  Where you believe you must expend E in order to gain angles and then hold those angles in a maximum E diminished state (once "all" of your E has been used up), bighorn and I (correct me if I'm assuming wrong bh) come into a duel believing that managing E and angles are just as important as the other, and in bh's words, "

convert E into angles as needed, and vice versa . How much and how quickly, depends on the situation.

Bold being my own words. 

If I go lag pursuit and build some E, while the other guy pulls back as hard as he can on his stick while "riding the edge without any E," sure he'll gain some angles, but he won't have the E to then follow me up, becuase the only E he has is enough to keep him from pancaking.  Managing E in an angles fight is just as important (if not more so then) just orienting your lift vector on your opponent and then pulling back.

donkey

[Murdr]

Sorry, but I just don't feel like writing anything up right now, so I'll pull a topical quote...

Ok, let me give you a couple examples.  Lets start with a duel scenario.  I attempt to get the best advantage I can possibly get at the merge, either with vertical separation, a lead turn, or both.  Let's say I got some form of advantage at the initial merge.  I enter the turn at 6+ Gs, then ease off on the stick to view the opponent.  So now at this point, 1/3rd into the first turn, I see that I have positional advantage (I'll complete a reversal first, or inside the opponent, or both).  Right here is an E vs angles choice.  One could, continue the best possible turn and go for a shot.  Or, what I normally do, is ease my turn just enough to maintain a slight positional advantage at the next merge.  I just saved E.  Second merge, second turn, I have the same situation owing to the fact, that I allowed myself to maintain a slight advantage going into that merge.  Same scenario after the merge, and I do the same...Just turn tight enough to maintain a slight positional advantage.  I just saved a little more E.

If we started with the exact same E, by the third mege I have an E advantage, and with that, I have more maneuver options than the other guy.  Odds are there will not be a fourth merge, because no matter what the other plane does, I have more options, and can likely convert that into chasing his tail on his side of the circle.

--snip--
Any of the better sticks can switch seamlessly between angles and E fighting, and even mislead the bogie into thinking they are doing one when actually the goal is the other.

[Zazen13]

Then maybe you're approaching dueling in the wrong fashion.  Where you believe you must expend E in order to gain angles and then hold those angles in a maximum E diminished state (once "all" of your E has been used up), bighorn and I (correct me if I'm assuming wrong bh) come into a duel believing that managing E and angles are just as important as the other, and in bh's words, "
Bold being my own words. 

Did you read my earlier post up the thread a bit?

They start off 50/50 in importance, but the closer you get to stallfighting the more important angles become because the angle you are at when you both go E bankrupt is "cast in stone". Only a flagrant mistake can change it from that point on...If you run out of E while you are in a bad position you're going to have a really hard time making that angle up stallfighting. He's going to have to make a huge mistake or a lot of little ones. Conversely, if when you run out of E you're angle is good and you're just a tug away from a lead shot, you're going to pop his arse the first second he falls off the edge.