p51 seems djust fine to me.

[Maniac]

Heard alot of squeaking about the p51 fm change...

I dont see anything wrong with it, its still the sweetest ride in the game...

Regards

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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-

[Yeager]

The only recent change to the P51 that I know of (1.03) was the addition of "prop drag" and some "compression".  Other FMs received this as well.

I squeak about the P51 because:

1) Structural weakness at left wing root.

2) Structural weakness at right wing root.

3) I have a long established perception (I could very easily be wrong) that the P51 series was at least a moderately capable all around *pursuit* aircraft.  In the AH P51D, you need to be faster than *any other plane* in the sector.  If you get tragically bounced and need to do some painfully hard evasive maneovering (provided your wings are still on), you will be down 200 IAS within 5 seconds.  At a speed of 150-190 IAS, the P51 is a big fat wallowing bubble just waiting to be burst open.  My perception tells me I should have a little more resonate energy and a wee bit more roll at slow speed.

I still love it though.  To its benifit, the AH P51D is FAST!  It does perform exceedingly well at intense speed (provided your wings stay on) and gets good gas mileage.

I will shut up on this now forever.  I trust that these things will undergo a curing process over time.  As AH matures, I thank we can all expect some detailed improvements in FMs.

Yeager

[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 08-25-2000).]

[StSanta]

 

At a speed of 150-190 IAS, the P51 is a big fat wallowing bubble just waiting to be burst open

So it the 109's, the P-47's, the P-38's, the Corsairs, hell any plane except the Spit and the Zeke (the latter can pull an immelman immediately after the wheels have left the ground.

A 109 with a closing O51 on his 6 has less talking for him than a P-51 with a 109 closing on his 6 - he hasn't got the speed to avoid a saddle up, he hasn't got the roll to effectively scissor the 51, and he doesn't have the high speed handling to use such maneuvers to get the 51 to miss.

His hopes relies on avoiding the saddle up or first pass, get the opponent to overshoot, accelerate away and then reverse.

Low and slow, any target except the Spit V and Zeke have very slim chances of survival. Naturally, the T&B'ers have a larger one.

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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime

[funked]

I find the P-51D to be the best fighter in the game.  I don't consciously fly for streak in it (I'm not a big fan of survival), but find my k/d up near 5:1 usually in the Mustang.  It does everything the anectdotes say it could do.  And it's greatly helped by the bogus fuel multiplier which lets it climb to high altitudes without reducing range to nil.

The only problem seems to be the wing shedding.  But this never happens to me, and it was a historical problem anyways.  But if guys like Yeager (who don't treat whining as a sport) are complaining then it's probably a real problem.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 08-26-2000).]

[Jigster]

 

Originally posted by StSanta:

At a speed of 150-190 IAS, the P51 is a big fat wallowing bubble just waiting to be burst open

So it the 109's, the P-47's, the P-38's, the Corsairs, hell any plane except the Spit and the Zeke (the latter can pull an immelman immediately after the wheels have left the ground.

A 109 with a closing O51 on his 6 has less talking for him than a P-51 with a 109 closing on his 6 - he hasn't got the speed to avoid a saddle up, he hasn't got the roll to effectively scissor the 51, and he doesn't have the high speed handling to use such maneuvers to get the 51 to miss.

His hopes relies on avoiding the saddle up or first pass, get the opponent to overshoot, accelerate away and then reverse.

Low and slow, any target except the Spit V and Zeke have very slim chances of survival. Naturally, the T&B'ers have a larger one.

[/b]

Just my opinion, but wth...

I think 109's, especialy the G10's are one of the best planes in the game to win a defensive situation. If that 51 is closing, easiest thing to do it let him get close before a quick break and roll...if he follows and blows all his E...all ya have to do is out climb him afterwards. If he doesn't, you can use the G10's massive climbing advantage to whittle away at his E. Perhaps the only plane that can come close to the G10 at this is the P-38.

But ya if ya let him saddle up yer dead  

But if the 109 is diving on the P-51 the P-51 is kinda SOL. The 109 can regain it's offensive position almost at will with it's climbing ability. If the 109 goes vertical no way the P-51 will ever touch it. If the 51 dives away, the G10 only needs to wait for the P-51 to bleed it's E on the deck before diving again and starting the process all over again. Oh well, your milage may vary   If the 109 pilot dies it's cause he got stupid  

And alot of those planes don't wobble at low speeds. I've found the P-38 to be great slow, especialy with that looping ability (though the guns seem a lil weak   )
Nice lil trump card for such a bigass plane.


- Jig

[StSanta]

Jig:

If you're slow, the break will be too, and he'll get an excellent snapshot. He'll zoom, descend on you, and get another one.

I had one P51 come in high, and he made 6 or 7 passes on me before bugging out. The only reason I lived was because I had altitude to play with.

------------------
StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime

[Yeager]

Ok, I have flown the P51 pretty regular since beta and have a decent amount of hours in the G10 and 190A5.  As well, I have flown pretty extensively every airframe with and without guns in AH.  I feel comfortable in everything and have a pretty good grasp on the various capabilities of all types.

These opinions of mine on the P51 are recent.  Having been developed since 1.02.

IME, the P51 losses E in vertical fights  faster than any other fighter.

IME, the P51 losses E in horizontal fights faster than any other fighter.

The above is true ESPECIALLY when the P51 goes nose to nose with G10s and 190A5s.  

The only equitable way to perform in the P51 is to enter the combat sector at good altitiude (23-25k+), having a minimum trimmed speed of at least 300 IAS (330-350ias better).  Next, find the poor red fellow who is nearby caboosing a contryman and use the P51s excellent high speed stability to make a medium range tracking shot while maintaining high speed so that you can get good seperation from all those red bastards to make the next grab to 20k+.

I believe the P51 should have better overall E retention (perhaps 25 to 35% better) and a tad bit better vertical performance (at least 30% improvement) than it currently has.  It should at least be able to square off in a fistfight with most 190s and 109s.  Right now its best used as a backstabber because it really doesnt perform in close.
All anyone has to do i na dogfight is pullover the top and come down on the naked pony.  It cant follow anything over the top.

Yeager

[jihad]

IME, the P51 losses E in vertical fights faster than any other fighter.

IME, the P51 losses E in horizontal fights faster than any other fighter.

 Laminar flow wing might be the reason for this?

 I was having the "weak wing" problems with the P51 and occasionally other planes too,I had the roll sliders set at 100% across the board and had a very smooth line in the stick configuration screen,however I had the default slider settings for pitch and yaw which were causing *mini* spikes when moved in those axis.

 I changed the yaw and pitch sliders to 100% across the board and dialed in the deadband and damper to get the same smooth line shown in the roll axis and haven`t lost a wing since,it takes a bit of time/experimentation to get there but is well worth it-just another superior feature coded by the gang at HTC.  

[funked]

Yeager, vertical performance is thrust vs. weight.  Do the math on the power loading.  P-51D is one of the worst planes in this set at most altitudes and fuel loads.  Me 109G-10 and Fw 190 are lighter planes with more power.  

Wingloading is quite poor too.  About the same as the 190 and the Typhoon, and only the P-47 is worse.

It's a heavy plane unless you drain all the fuel out of it.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 08-26-2000).]

[Citabria]

try the typhoon or yak9u...

dont even talk to me about e loss in vert or horizontal till you try these bleeding bastards  

btw I love flying both of these planes  

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by Citabria:
try the typhoon or yak9u...

dont even talk to me about e loss in vert or horizontal till you try these bleeding bastards  

btw I love flying both of these planes  

Typhoon loses E when you turn it slightly for couple degrees.. its HUGE amount of E it loses with slight turn, unbelievable!
While P-47D for example is awesome E plane.

Though, I don't agree with Yak9, it keeps E good and gains it fast after a loss.

[Yeager]

Ive become somewhat jaded about the comparative accuracy of several of these flight models.

Im not doubting that the HT designed code structure we lovingly refer to as flight models has bad data, Im just of the opinion that there appears to be an unexpected value, or group of values, coming out of the finished product (FMs).  As Ive said before, this is a problem I am experiencing personaly.  The fact that so few other people feel the same gives me pause to be retrospective.  I may simply be off track.

It makes sense to me however, I think this is whats happening.  HTC appears to be reviewing some things, math.  Some statements about possible problems with E retention modeling
give me a good feeling about the next release.

Yeager

[Maverick]

Yeager,

you are not alone in having problems with the 51. I have stopped flying it with the wing shedding problems. It is not the fastest plane anymore and certainly doesn't accelerate worth a darn in the game. In short it is a plane to use for HA (IMO) and if you want to handicap yourself. Kinda like using the YAK with it's small ammo load.

Mav

[juzz]

Me 109G-10 was always the fastest plane iirc.

[Fishu]

For me, P-51 is faster than 109G10, but remember, 109G10 should accerlate quicker than P-51.
If you in P-51 end up low with 109G10, and both have no E, it isn't hard to guess who loses accerlation war.. (before P51 reaches safe speed, its dead because it reaches it sooo slow)
I don't know about wing shedding problems.. only plane where I haven't managed to break wing lately.. even more lately I've lost f4u-1c wingtips due to harsh pull up.