Battle of Britain II

[thrila]

"For Your Freedom and Ours" is a good book about the Poles in the second world war. 

Johnny Johnson was the top RAF ace in the ETO with 38 i believe.  Though Marmaduke "Pat" Pattle is believed to have 50 victories in the gladiator and hurricane, his records were destroyed in the evacuation of greece '41.

[Angus]

They have been put together in Chris Shores "Aces High". About 50, some 15 in a bipe.
However Pattle scored a lot in the med.
The Brits had a good system IMHO, once the pilots had learned the ropes, the experienced ones were sent off as instructors at home. So the scores never went that high as in Germany, but the outcome was a winning one. Germany had their pilots fighting until they fell, and pilot experience as an average declined from '40 onwards, while the Brits built up a very well trained force.
So it was...

[CAP1]

The Brits had a good system IMHO, once the pilots had learned the ropes, the experienced ones were sent off as instructors at home. So the scores never went that high as in Germany, but the outcome was a winning one. Germany had their pilots fighting until they fell, and pilot experience as an average declined from '40 onwards, while the Brits built up a very well trained force.
So it was...

and the above is most likely what played the largest part in great britain surviving.

[Obie303]

"For Your Freedom and Ours" is a good book about the Poles in the second world war.

This is a fantasic book!  It made me realize the struggle that not only the Polish, but all RAF pilots had at the onset of the BoB.  A must read for any WWII history buff.

Here's another view into the expertise of the Polish pilots:



"On September 12, 1939, Lt. Jan Falkowski, an instructor at the Polish Aviation Training Center, was flying a PWS 26 from Lublin to Sokal when three Messerschmitt Bf109 fighters spotted his fabric-covered biplane. Anticipating an easy victory, the three Germans promptly attacked. It was a big mistake. Fully aerobatic, the PWS was one of the finest trainers in pre-war Europe. With Lt. Falkowski at the controls, the three Germans received a "master class" in the art of dogfighting. In a remarkable exhibition of flying skill, Lt. Falkowski outmaneuvered the advanced Bf109s, causing one to crash in flames and the others to withdraw in frustration."

Jan was a member of the 303rd squadron and finished the BoB with 9.5 victories.  He wrote a book, "With the Wind In My Face" about his experience about the war.  Jan passed away in 2001.

[68Wooley]

Excellent book on the subject debunking the RAF's role in preventing a German invasion, whilst remaining very respectful of their contribution:

http://www.amazon.com/Invasion-1940-Battle-Britain-Hitler/dp/0786716185/ref=pd_bbs_sr_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217377003&sr=8-4

Robinson's fictional works are also excellent - 'A Piece of Cake' in particular. My handle comes from a character in 'Goshawk Squadron'.

[Angus]

"In a remarkable exhibition of flying skill, Lt. Falkowski outmaneuvered the advanced Bf109s, causing one to crash in flames and the others to withdraw in frustration"

Hehe, greedy vulchers.
Did that once in AH I was out of ammo and light on fuel when I was bounced
As a sidenote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbcFsUtqRpM&feature=related
Enjoy

[wantok]

As a sidenote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbcFsUtqRpM&feature=related
Enjoy

Great movie - thanks for reminding me, I must grab a copy.

[Angus]

My favourite one actually. And the missus saw it twice already

[Angus]

More...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5E4YCYvCIU&feature=related

More (direct voice account)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaF_wTXZ72g&feature=related

Now, the Poles were...aggressive Repeat please

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXf1bhEEXd0&feature=related

[Angus]

And more...stolen from Galland though.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjz8pAGRvsg&NR=1

[Angus]

BTW, a 1941 Scenery would have the same LW bombers, and no more aiming technology (since their beams had partially been tackled with, and the curvature of the earth...is the curvature of the earth, no matter the year). Their opponent would in 1941 frequently have been cannon armed, and the majority Spits this time.
So, for an AH BOBII Scenario, the Plane setup would be close to RAF with Spit V, Hurry IIC and some Bostons for countermeasure, While the LW's only change would be 109F instead of the Emil.
BTW, out of the top of my head, LW launched less to similar airborne strength in Barbarossa than in 1940 at Britain. So, no Barbarossa, and you'd be working with a bigger BoB on both sides.

[Obie303]

Great stuff Angus.

[Furball]

This should be the theme music to AH.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZJdRRN3dOQ

[MajIssue]

Britain with ease i think.

As Bald rightly said - Germany lacked any effective bombers.  

But also: -

• The RAF was using cannon in 1941 which would have made downing bombers much easier
• The RAF pilots had a lot more experience
• Better equipment
• Better tactics
• Better defences
• Better production
• Better training for new pilots
• A hugely more effective bomber force - including Stirlings, Manchesters, Mosquitoes and Halifaxes

I don't think the Germans would have stood a chance at all.

Not so fast Furball...

• The RAF was using cannon in 1941 which would have made downing bombers much easier

So was the Luftwaffe

• The RAF pilots had a lot more experience

Not really... the core of the Luftwaffe had been fighting since the Spanish civil war

• Better equipment

debateable

• Better tactics

This one seems like a wash until Hitler and Goering decided to abandon destroying the RAF and destroy London instead

• Better defences

A given since Britian was defending and Germany was attacking

• Better production

Germany had all of Europe at it's disposal to produce war material... Advantage Germany

• Better training for new pilots

Another wash

• A hugely more effective bomber force - including Stirlings, Manchesters, Mosquitoes and Halifaxes

True... the lack of a true strategic bomber was the Luftwaffe's glaring weakness[/list]

I also believe that Britian would have won round two, because the Luftwaffe was getting it's orders from a pair of maniacs... Hitler and Goering. Round two would not have been necessary if Germany had stuck to the original plan of destroying the RAF and establishing air superiority prior to the commencement of Operation Sea Lion.

As it was the Luftwaffe almost won "round one". There could have been a different outcome if the German leadership had not acted emotionally and changed the original plan in mid-execution after the RAF bombed Berlin.

Home Field Advantage... The Germans probably had a better Air force, but the British were tougher at home.

[Furball]

I think you may have misunderstood me, i was talking in terms of 1940 RAF over 1941 RAF, but i will make my responses in red anyway: -

and by the way, it is Britain not Britian.

Not so fast Furball...


• The RAF was using cannon in 1941 which would have made downing bombers much easier

So was the Luftwaffe
Irrelevant - The LW was using it in 1940 too, the RAF prime objective was shooting down bombers, hence my point

• The RAF pilots had a lot more experience

Not really... the core of the Luftwaffe had been fighting since the Spanish civil war
Irrelevant - The RAF had more experience in 1941 than they did in 1940, they were a much better fighting force than they were in 1940

• Better equipment

debateable
Not debateable - the RAF had better aircraft, better guns, better fuel (iirc) in 1941 plus all of the lessons and tricks learned from 1940

• Better tactics

This one seems like a wash until Hitler and Goering decided to abandon destroying the RAF and destroy London instead
The RAF's tactics were fine tuned after the battles of 1940 and were much better than they had been at the start of the war

• Better defences

A given since Britian was defending and Germany was attacking
Well, glad you agree with me on something - but again, you have failed to see what i was talking about.  I was comparing 1940 to 1941 Britain.

• Better production

Germany had all of Europe at it's disposal to produce war material... Advantage Germany
Britain had better production than it did at the start of the war.  I think you will find (IIRC that is ) that Britain was easily outproducing Germany at this stage anyway

• Better training for new pilots

Another wash
Well yeah, those BoB vets were training up new RAF pilots

• A hugely more effective bomber force - including Stirlings, Manchesters, Mosquitoes and Halifaxes

True... the lack of a true strategic bomber was the Luftwaffe's glaring weakness
...and the RAF's striking force able to hit back at Germany if they attacked in 1941.[/list]

I also believe that Britian would have won round two, because the Luftwaffe was getting it's orders from a pair of maniacs... Hitler and Goering. Round two would not have been necessary if Germany had stuck to the original plan of destroying the RAF and establishing air superiority prior to the commencement of Operation Sea Lion.

I don't think it would have mattered who was in charge, the British were too strong at that point

As it was the Luftwaffe almost won "round one". There could have been a different outcome if the German leadership had not acted emotionally and changed the original plan in mid-execution after the RAF bombed Berlin.

As said already, the RAF would have moved out of range of the bombers and still been able to inflict heavy losses on them.  It wouldnt have taken long for the RN to come down from Scapa Flow to annihilate the German invasion fleets.

Home Field Advantage... The Germans probably had a better Air force, but the British were tougher at home.

I disagree, they were still using the same obselete bombers and only a slightly upgraded 109