Another What-If Scenario

[Saxman]

September, 1942....

The War in the Pacific has gone very, very badly for the Allies. Defeats at Coral Sea and Midway have left Allied forces in Australia and New Guinea cut off from reinforcements from America. With US carrier forces devastated, the Japanese leadership, rather than a negotiated truce as Yamamoto planned, have instead decided to force the Americans' hands by striking at American home soil.

The Americans have already abandoned Hawaii as an indefensible position with the loss of Midway to the Japanese, and have withdrawn the remnants of the Pacific Fleet back to the West Coast, pursued by a massive Japanese carrier and invasion force. Knowing that an attack is imminent, the Americans have poured every available aircraft and resource into the defense of the continent, and have hastily pressed the newly in-production F4U-1 into service. For the first time in 200 years, the continental United States faces foreign invasion....

Plane Set

Aircraft/vehicles for this setup can be drawn from the following:

United States
F4F-4
F4U-1 (limited numbers)
P-39D
P-38G (limited numbers)
P-47D-11
P-40B
SBD-5
TBM-3
B-25C
PT Boat (second life in aircraft)
Shore Battery (second like in aircraft)

Japan
A6M2
B5N
D3A
LVT (second life in aircraft)
6 aircraft carriers
Gunship-only task groups (possibly with as many as 2 cruisers, manable, with second life in aircraft)

One frame can be run entirely at night, allowing PTs to engage the Japanese fleets in a historical context and providing a unique challenge for both fighters and bombers on each side. Additionally in the case of the LVTs, scoring can be run based on how many of the boats successfully reach their target beaches (something similar to the percentage scores in air to air combat). The Japanese task groups can be assigned shore targets to bombard, scored as if a bomber squadron, which the Allies can defend by a combination of manned shore batteries and bomber/PT strikes.

[Shifty]

That's a pretty heafty Allied lineup against A6M2s. I love the idea, but maybe allow A6M5s as an A6M3 sub, and add a Ki-61 unit or two. Of course the Axis would need a land base for the Ki-61s. Maybe instead of invading the US, make it Australia? Cool idea though.

[Saxman]

Shifty,

The Allied lineup is just everything available to choose from, not necessarily that would be used. Maybe the CiC would choose two bombers and three fighters, but could only use ONE of the "limited" type (so he could have F4U-1s or P-38Gs, but not both together, and would need to fill out his flight line with F4Fs, P-40s or P-39s). Alternately, the available Allied aircraft could be set by the CM frame-by-frame.

I went with an invasion of the US first because of the novelty, but also because if you look at history it makes sense. The Japanese hit Midway to try and force the Americans to negotiate terms. Well, what if these negotiations soured and Japan decided to force the point?

[humble]

Australia would make much more sense. From a military perspective Hawaii was not only defendable but essential. Japans interests lied in the formation of the East Asia cooperative sphere or whatever they called it. Had the japanese been successful at Midway they would have continued with their plans to launch an invation of Australia from Port Morsby. If the japanese had wanted to invade Hawaii there best option was on Dec 7, 1941, had they attempted an attack vs an aware American military in 1942 they would have been cuaght in an unwinnable campaign. What would have changed is the focus of the american military, Bradley/Patton would have been in Hawaii and Torch would have never happened. There would be no lend lease and the USAAF would have about 2000 P-39D's in Hawaii...

[Shifty]

Shifty,

The Allied lineup is just everything available to choose from, not necessarily that would be used. Maybe the CiC would choose two bombers and three fighters, but could only use ONE of the "limited" type (so he could have F4U-1s or P-38Gs, but not both together, and would need to fill out his flight line with F4Fs, P-40s or P-39s). Alternately, the available Allied aircraft could be set by the CM frame-by-frame.

I went with an invasion of the US first because of the novelty, but also because if you look at history it makes sense. The Japanese hit Midway to try and force the Americans to negotiate terms. Well, what if these negotiations soured and Japan decided to force the point?

Not dumping on it of course. I like the idea. I could be mistaken, but I'm sure I've read somewhere that as early as the Battle of Midway A6m3s were replacing A6M2s on Japanese Cv's. Keep pushing it Sax!

[Captfish]

Sounds cool to me 

sounds like two what-ifs one attacking US soil and one attacking Aussie soil. 

[Redlegs]

Maybe the Japanese conquer all the Aleutian Islands and look at attacking mainland Alaska?

[Saxman]

Shifty,

Problem is the A6M5 doesn't really fit as a good substitute for the A6M3 as she's a much later ship.

[Krusty]

Dump the P-47. Swap the P-40B with the P-40E.

Enable a small number of A6M5s or an "elite" group of Ki61s or something. All A6M2s gets boring for the axis.


IMO it's too lop-sided. The A6M2 has nothing on any of those planes except turn. It can't chase, it can't climb, it can't zoom, it can't dive, and it can't withstand enemy fire with any of the allied counterparts. [EDIT: Not counting the F4F-4, sorry I should have specified this]

That's my main concern with this as far as setups go.

You would need to ensure a 3:1 superiority ratio or something.

[Saxman]

As pointed out, Ki-61s would require land bases which for this setup may not work (unless it's made dynamic, so the Japanese can actually seize land bases if they're successful). I'd see the A6M5 as better, or at least more usable since they're CV-based.

I can also see removing the P-47, although if balance is already an issue why swap out the P-40B for the superior E?

What would be REALLY interesting is to allow the Japanese LVTs to actually capture bases in the course of the frame. The tactical execution would definitely be a change of pace, as neither attacker nor defender have unlimited numbers to throw out. Both sides would have to carefully manage their resources both in attack and defense.

[Shifty]

Actually from what I can find Sax the A6M3/A6m5 were very close in performance. Way more than the A6M2/A6M3

[Shifty]

I found the stats here. http://www.acepilots.com/planes/specs.html

I'm no Widewing by any means, he would probably have much better sources than this.

I kind of agree with Humble too. Had the Japanese captured Port Moresby, winning the Battle of Coral Sea, and won the Battle of Midway...
They would have probably been more likely to invade Australia in the fall/winter of 42/43 rather than attempt to invade the USA.

[Krusty]

Technically they didn't WANT America

They wanted America to stay out of their business in the Pacific.


P.S. True what you say about the P-40E, but why have F4u1 and P-38G and P-40B/E against an enemy comprised entirely of A6m2s in the first place?

[Saxman]

Revisions:

First to the situation:

February, 1943. With the collapse of American naval forces at Coral Sea and Midway, the United States no longer had open channels of reinforcing their beleagured forces and allies in the Pacific. The Japanese consolidated their hold on New Guinea and landed in Australia, who fought bitterly but without fresh supplies or reinforcements were unable to hold back the Japanese advance, and by January, 1943 surrendered.

The Americans meanwhile rushed to rebuild their shattered navy. Left only with Saratoga and Wasp, and the newly completed Essex after the loss of their remaining carriers in the two naval battles at Coral Sea and Midway, they decided that in the face of a Japanese presence on Midway Island and six intact fleet carriers the base of the US Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor was untenable, and Admiral Nimitz ordered the fleet withdrawn to the mainland, while still maintaining the airfields. With their naval and airpower decimated, the US turned to their submarine force to harrass the Japanese.

Fearing a resurgent US Navy and frustrated by the Americans' continued refusal to negotiate, the Japanese leadership takes Admiral Yamamoto's warning at its word: The only way for them to dictate a truce with the Americans would be to do so in Washington itself.

The Japanese plan of battle focused first on destroying the US Pacific Fleet for good by bypassing the airfields on Pearl Harbor, and following the fleet back to its bases along the western coast of the United States, intended to draw the remnants of the Pacific Fleet into battle and seizing the key airfields and installations there to establish a foothold on American soil.

Plane Set

United States

The American plane set would be drawn from a list below. Two bomber and three fighter types will be used in each frame, to be determined by the CM.

F4F-4
F4U-1 (limited numbers)
P-39D
P-38G (limited numbers)
P-40E
SBD-5
TBM-3
B-25C
PT Boat (second life in aircraft)
3 Aircraft Carriers
Cruiser Battle Groups (second life in vehicles)

Japanese

A6M2 (64 minimum requirement)
A6M5
B5N
D3A
Ki-61 (limited numbers IF Japanese successfully capture airfields)
Ju-88 (sub for G4M IF Japanese successfully capture airfields)
LVT (second life in aircraft)
6 Aircraft Carriers
Cruiser Battle Groups (second life in aircraft)

Victory Conditions

The Americans must fend off the Japanese attack by defending their carriers and ground bases. Additionally, they must prevent the Japanese from landing troops and attack the Japanese carriers.

The Japanese primary goal is the annihilation of the remnants of the US Pacific Fleet in surface and aerial action. Additionally, they are to hit American shore installations (bases, factories, etc). LVTs must successfully make landfall. Alternately, the CM may run an actual capture operation, requiring the Axis to actually capture a base. Regardless of how this is handled, if the Japanese successfully take possession of an airfield, they will have access to Ki-61 and "G4M" land-based aircraft in subsequent frames.

[Krusty]

That sounds rather interesting with the threat of base capture and all....