What makes the P-51D so great at shooting down people

[TDeacon]

I don't always agree with you Kweassa, but you've hit the nail on the head with your posts in this thread. 

For example, the currently modeled P51s have many fewer options than they did a couple of years ago (since HTC crippled them by changing the drag model per Widewing in threads such as this one http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,212801.45.html or this one  http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,199758.0.html).

Steve, chill out.  :-)

[Steve]

Steve, chill out.  :-)

Uhhh.  I am chilled, I simply won't allow Kweassa to change what I've siad so he can perpetuate an argument. Going fast isn't the pony's only option.  Do you disagree?

[dtango]

Hi guys :

Thanks to real life my mustang has been the virtual hangar for the last month and I haven't been venturing on the boards lately.  Thought I would add my $.02 to this thread.

My Three Laws of Air Combat:
1) There are no absolutes in air combat; it's all relative
2) You can't defy aerodynamics
3) The way we fly reflects the way we think

When someone asks a question like "what are the best ways" of using a particular aircraft you get a lot of advice like what's been mentioned.  The trouble is the advice is really all relative.  It's relative to energy states.  It's relative to aircraft capability.  It's relative to airspeeds.  It's relative to weight.  It's relative to separation distances.  The list goes on.

The problem is when we take this advice as absolutes.  You see it all the time in different ways in statements like:

"the Mustang is a B&Z fighter",
"it's an energy fighter, not a stall fighter",
"keep your speed or you a dead pony".... etc.

So when is a fighter an energy fighter vs. an angles fighter?  Actually the whole categorization that an airplane is an energy fighter vs. an angles fighter is off to begin with.  It's really when should you use energy tactics vs. angles tactics?  The answer to that question is all relative to a given situation.

This leads to Law #3.  The way we fly reflects the way we think.  If we think in absolute terms then we fly our aircraft in absolute terms.  If we think in relative terms then we fly our aircraft in relative terms.  I know, quite esoteric.  It has big implications though.  So if we take the advice on aircraft as absolute then we fly it in a way that absolutely paints ourselves into a box for flying that airplane .  Free your mind!  Remember the 1st law, it's all relative!

This is what Steve is saying about how to fly the Mustang.  Don't fly it so that you've painted yourself into a box.  This is also what's insightful about what Badboy says as well.  Don't forget about the dimension of teamwork and how that changes the relativity of air combat.

Cheers!

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[Chalenge]

Aces High is like PacMan. You see little bits of chewies flying in space and you rush to gobble them down before someone beats you to it...

There is no such thing as picking cherry picking or kill stealing... just LUNCH!

[1Boner]

Going fast isn't the pony's only option.  Do you disagree?

I,m sure going fast isn't the only option for the runstang.

BUT, the larger majority of guys who use them in the MA use it very one dimensionaly.  When you are co-alt with them, they run,period.

During my last sortie tonight, I chased a pony from 10k to 23k in a freaking circle!

Happens all the time. Run Run Run.

And no, he didn't shoot me down.

Widewing did though! Nice shot from a ship of some sort as I desended to find someone who would fight.

Just a collosal waste of time.

If anything near them gets remotely close to being co-alt,Zoooom off they go.

I think they are a Pox on the game and should be perked.

I know its not the plane, its the pilot, but geeez louise!!

The P-51 needs to be perked!!!




Whine over and out,

Boner

[botkins]

use the force and shoot down enemys you will   

[TDeacon]

Steve,

My thought is that, given the way P51 performance is currently modeled, 1-1 against an opponent of equal skill its speed is really its only remaining asset.  This speed lets you chose to engage when you have a transient advantage, and disengage when you don't.  If you shoot well enough you may be able to cash in on that transient advantage.  The preceding tends to lead to a certain pattern of engagement in such 1-1, equal-skill-level engagements, which will often force the P51 to break off the fight (ie "run"). 

Of course, against an opponent of lesser skill you have increased options, leading to more variation in how the fight plays out, but that's generally true of any plane. 

[Zazen13]

The P-51 needs to be perked!!!

 

[Zazen13]

Steve,

My thought is that, given the way P51 performance is currently modeled, 1-1 against an opponent of equal skill its speed is really its only remaining asset.  This speed lets you chose to engage when you have a transient advantage, and disengage when you don't.  If you shoot well enough you may be able to cash in on that transient advantage.  The preceding tends to lead to a certain pattern of engagement in such 1-1, equal-skill-level engagements, which will often force the P51 to break off the fight (ie "run"). 

Of course, against an opponent of lesser skill you have increased options, leading to more variation in how the fight plays out, but that's generally true of any plane. 

Nice post...

The P51 is one of a pretty short list of pure "initiative" fighters. The ability to engage and disengage at will is a tool, just like a Hurricane turning on a dime and giving you change is a tool. Of course someone who flies the same plane for 10+ years will be so familiar with it that he can likely fly it out of context, like a "duck out of water" and enjoy some success if he so chooses, especially against a weak opponent not so familiar with his plane. More power to him, but in my personal opinion, a great Pony driver who flies it in perfect synergistic union with its design concept and modelling is a thing of pure beauty. Any plane flown in this way is a joy to observe, much like a perfectly pitched baseball game resulting in a no-hitter.

We wouldn't say to the pitcher of a no-hitter in the after-game interview, "Bob Sloan, that's your 2nd career no-hitter and we realize you are a fastball and sinker ball pitcher. But, the game would have been much better if you didn't use your two best pitches but threw curveballs and sliders instead...".

I'm not taking anything away from players that choose to apply their tools in a ways divergent from their intended purpose. Watching someone who can do that consistently, especially against skilled opponents, is no less impressive. But, a player choosing not to fly planes in "duck out of water" fashion doesn't take anything away from my opinion of him. Cursing a P51 pilot because he chooses to not fight your fight, then following him around for 30 minutes is not only irrational, but a complete waste of time.

I don't know about anyone else but I feel much more satisfied when I kill someone who was flying his plane in perfect harmony with it's strengths than I do when I kill someone who was flying his plane to its weaknesses. Sure, it's a little exciting to see a Pony driver go a couple of turns with a SpitV in tight, right up until the part where the SpitV gets inside him and sends him to the tower. Once in a while the Pony driver may get the Spit, especially if he sucks, but that's not that inspiring to me.To me the perfect engagement is every plane flying to their strength's while at the same time trying to exploit the other's weaknesses. It's just like watching a gorgeous sunset or your kids opening their Christmas presents. It's what makes life awe inspiring.

[Steve]

Steve,

My thought is that, given the way P51 performance is currently modeled, 1-1 against an opponent of equal skill its speed is really its only remaining asset. 

Well, I'll post my thoughts on another asset and then kweassa can come on and talk down his nose to me some more in order to validate his existence.

Certainly speed is the pony's primary asset. I don't know that you can consider its' views an asset in the same vein you would consider speed one. For the sake of this discussion, let's say it is more of a passive asset and we are talking about active assets, agreed?

Speed is one thing that opens up the door for another weapon; one that is not in many 51' pilot's repertoire.  It's not that they couldn't use it, no doubt many could but I don't see many do it. In fact, very very few.

I'm talking about deceleration. Often, a guy bouncing a pony is balls to the wall because he hasn't given consideration to the fact that the pony may try something other than just running.  With it's ability to drop flaps early, and a decent sized rudder surface, the pony decelerates pretty well. Yes, there are a couple of other planes that slow down faster but in my mind, this is an asset to the pony. Not only does it decelerate decently, but like I said, many opponents catch on to the deceleration late.  I am convinced that this is, at least in part, due to the 51's reputation/ability to run.

I'm not going to convince the experts of this, I mean, what do I know? But there is no way for anyone to convince me I'm wrong either.  I've used this tool in the MA to my advantage many times and against experienced opponents.  From my own experience, it works much more often that it fails.  YMMV.

I have my flame suit on now so you guys can go ahead and tell me what an idiot I am.   


Steve

[Zazen13]

Steve, what do you do after you decelerate them? Go for the overshoot? Scissors?

[Steve]

Steve, what do you do after you decelerate them? Go for the overshoot? Scissors?

overshoot.

[dtango]

Everyone that keeps focusing on the P-51's speed, you realize that it's max performance turn is not anywhere near it's top speed right?  It's corner velocity is well below that.  If you want to maximize angles then you're wasting your time trying to do so when you're flying at airspeeds greater than corner because the faster above corner you are the worse your turn performance is.

Let's take this concept a little further.  You realize that if a Spit 16 engages the P-51 at the Mustang's corner speed has no turn performance advantage vs. the P-51 until it's turning below the Mustang's corner speed because the Spit 16's corner speed is well below that of the P-51's.  A savvy Mustang pilot will use this to their advantage.  Advantage in air combat is determined by the relative differences for particular situations. 

Zazen - to me this is the epitome of flying to the strengths of a particular airplane when a pilot understands stuff like this about their airplane.  This is why I'm always troubled by the advice on flying an aircraft a certain way because air combat is all relative.  When people say keep the Mustang fast, well what does that mean?  Firstly it ignores any relativity in terms of altitude, speed, weight, separation etc. between the combatants.  2ndly it's so non-specific to given situations that it's a misleading generalization.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[Zazen13]

Zazen - to me this is the epitome of flying to the strengths of a particular airplane when a pilot understands stuff like this about their airplane.  This is why I'm always troubled by the advice on flying an aircraft a certain way because air combat is all relative.  When people say keep the Mustang fast, well what does that mean?  Firstly it ignores any relativity in terms of altitude, speed, weight, separation etc. between the combatants.  2ndly it's so non-specific to given situations that it's a misleading generalization.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

I couldn't agree with you more. The strengths of a plane are always relative to the weaknesses of the opponent as I stated at the conclusion of my last post. That's what makes air combat really interesting, it's a constant balancing act. We could say in general that a Niki out-turns a P51D. But, it sure as hell doesn't out-turn it at 375 mph. So, it would likely be the correct play for the P51D to turn with the Niki for lead and a guns solution at that speed. But, it would not likely be a good play to do so at 175 mph. That is just one example, but certainly, as players become more familiar with a particular aircraft they will learn when it is the correct play to fly a plane a bit out of context vs. other aircraft types in certain situations to exploit their weaknesses. That's pretty much the definition of a "good" pilot in my opinion. I distinguish that from the same P51D that still tries to turn with the Niki at 175 mph. Even if he was somehow ultimately successful I would consider that a weak play because he flew to his enemy's strengths and his own weaknesses.

Sometimes not compromising the strengths of your aircraft are out-weighed by the opportunity to exploit the weaknesses of the other aircraft, sometimes not. A "veteran" fighter pilot is one that knows this and maintains that delicate equilibrium of tactical discretion for maximum effect.

[Angus]

Well, if your prey is making a low speed bat turn and you're faster, you take a high turn, hehehe