Author Topic: N1K issue - no hijackers please (Read 486 times)

kfsone · « **on:** May 15, 2001, 03:22:00 PM »

I'll try to film this, but I'm repeatedly seeing N1Ks fly up to my lanc on auto-climb at a very steep angle. At first they're climbing up my 6, but eventually when they catch up to me at about 22-26k, they're underneath in my planes blindspot. They get to about d1.1 and they're now directly underneath the center of my plane outta sight of my guns regardless of maneuvering, and they simply pull straight up - from that steep climb - and do a loop, the first quarter of which they shred my aircraft with impunity, and then proceed to finish their loop and dive back to land the kill or else collide with me if I don't explore in time and make sure of my death.

Crucial point here is that they go into this loop *straight* out of the climb, with no pause to recover or collect 'e'. It should be easy enough to evade with a few jinks, but watching these N1Ks go from steep, 22k climb into a loop?

Is this for real?

Why haven't I evaded them? Partly because each time I've been busy with other cons who've worked hard to try and catch & kill me. But also because the first time I was quite sure that when he dried to pull up he'd drop back into the range of my guns, which he was sitting just below. I had no idea he was going to have enough energy to pull up even harder. It's not a subtle pull-back on the stick to expose my underbelly, they literally pull back and start a loop like they've just come out of a dive.

Second time it happened, I wanted to see if it was a fluke or if the guy was gonna repeat it. Third time it happened, I'd been busy with other cons and was frantically hoping I would get chance to line on my run and do something about this n1k that would hopefully be in my tail gun sights. Fourth time, I got lucky and pinged the guy once, and the moment he jinked he stalled and span out of control.

No other plane does the same thing; they have to get alt above me before they can maneuver. These N1Ks are driving straight up the lanc/b26s blind spot. It must be frustrating for the guys who've spent all that time working me just to have this N1K trot up and steal the kill without the least concern for energy or posture.

K

[This message has been edited by kfsone (edited 05-15-2001).]

[This message has been edited by kfsone (edited 05-16-2001).]

Maverick · « **Reply #1 on:** May 15, 2001, 04:04:00 PM »

kfsone,

Not to be negative or anything. Why didn't you maneuver to counter this??? It seems to be very common (in my experience) to see a buff turning to present it's 6 to me whenever I try to engage. This tactic, unrealistic as it is, makes sure I am facing the heaviest firepower the buff can throw at me. If you see a nik, or any other fighter, climbing up to you and don't maneuver to maintain sight or get your guns on it, you deserve to be shot down. I wish I could find buff drivers like that!!!

Mav

Major Tom · « **Reply #2 on:** May 15, 2001, 04:55:00 PM »

It's not unrealistic in the least, lone B-24's on anti submarine patrol did it quite often. B-17E crews also tried to get the zeros to come on their 6.

Kfsone, you need to maneuver your buff. Turn those interceptors high wing loading against them and shoot them up. You might also consider that you fly a good bomber, like a B-26 or B-17 instead of the nancy lanc or Ju.88. Only fly the lanc and 88 with HEAVY air cover.

kfsone · « **Reply #3 on:** May 15, 2001, 05:26:00 PM »

Sigh...

Edited my post to reflect the fact that they are climbing straight up my low-six and are climbing up to my belly - the lanc and b26s blind spot.

K

kfsone · « **Reply #4 on:** May 15, 2001, 05:29:00 PM »

The point is - they seem to be able to climb up to co-alt with me and, unlike any other aircraft, instantly have 'e' to maneuver and attack, none of the hard work of taking a buff down with a 109 or a spit or an a6m. I woulda thought a plane that has just fought its way to 22k on a hard climb would need a few seconds level or dive to get combat energy, but these guys either pull a loop under you - without levelling or diving first, or pull up co-alt and blast away without any problems.

I'll try and get it on film...

Phantom121 · « **Reply #5 on:** May 15, 2001, 05:37:00 PM »

Climbing under a Lanc or B-26 is a fairly common practiceI am surprized you haven't seen more of it. The move is even better in a G10, better guns, better climb. I used to use it a lot but the better buff pilots have made that almost impossible. Better now to attack from above. Faster, they have less time to react. You can reposition easily and repeat as needed. How ever when buffs get high (28k and higher) the 152 is about the only plane that can readily attack them from above. I promise you, a Niki ain't gonna out manuever ya above 28K.

kfsone · « **Reply #6 on:** May 16, 2001, 12:04:00 AM »

Please - no more cockamime 'evade' type answers. I know a little about buff flying. I deal quite effectively with most fighter engagements, and I'll be dealing with those N1K attacks just fine thanks very much.

My issue is the flight modelling of those aircraft. I'm amazed that they can so readily climb like that and then without any pause to regain 'e' simply pull up.

Lemme explain one last time:

. N1K spotted at 5.9 *below* me.
. Evasives and returned fire with other engaged cons, who have usually had to climb up to me outside gun range, regain e and then begin their attacks
. N1K continues climbing as fast as it can
. Other cons continue working me, gradually wearing me down
. N1K is still climbing at the same rate, has now reached 1.1 distance; at this point any other aircraft would have to lessen it's rate of climb or level out for a moment
. Instead, these N1Ks are comfortably pulling back on the stick, spraying the underside of my buff and either completing a loop or levitating up on magic e they pulled out of a hat into my plane - with no hesitation after the climb, no pause. It's climb, climb, climb, loop.

I know fine how to evade, which is how I survive the other engaging cons, my issue here is - how come the N1K can pull that stunt off, that seems way out of whack; you do that in a 190 or a 109 and you will spin when you yank back on the stick, unless you stop and recover some e, or ease up on the climb. You can't just climb up on a high-alt buff and then pull back on the stick at it.
K

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #7 on:** May 16, 2001, 12:44:00 AM »

You've just encountered the widely seen NIKI vertical perfomance issue, this is obvious to anyone with an open mind and working eyes from the first day v1.04.

AKDejaVu · « **Reply #8 on:** May 16, 2001, 12:47:00 AM »

kfsone,

I highly suggest you get some film of this happening. I'd really like to see the 5.9k vertical zoom you speak of.

I'd also avoid the "I'm an experienced lanc pilot" story. It really doesn't mean squat when you are going up against people that are equally experienced against lancs... and have 4 cannons pointed your way.

AKDejaVu

MANDOBLE · « **Reply #9 on:** May 16, 2001, 05:28:00 AM »

kfsone, I saw (was the victim) once just what you describe. Lanc flying level at 11k and nikki climbing (no a very steepy climb) from the deck and aproaching from 4 o'clock. I though I had time to react and put the lanc in autoclimb tracking the nikki from the rear turret, but them the climb got really steepy and was to late to maneouver. Nikki under me firing and scoring hits in my left wing while I activated external view to have a more clear idea about where to maneouver the Lanc to evade a second pass. While in external I saw the nikki climbing vertically and fast at my 11 o'clock and inmediatelly looping and diving, hitting hard in my right wing and diving away. The vertical climb, loop, dive and second firing was done at less than 500 yards for the Lanc, no time at all to turn the Lanc even 20 degrees.

Obviously I dont need any film to give credit to your experience.

Anyway, this was a singular experience and this was the only time I saw a nikki doing a so incredible aproach, maneouver and kill.

juzz · « **Reply #10 on:** May 16, 2001, 05:50:00 AM »

kfsone; The N1K2-J climbs best at about 150mph IAS. At that speed, it is quite capable of pulling into a loop.

Yeager · « **Reply #11 on:** May 16, 2001, 07:58:00 AM »

U guys need to remember that AH is a *game*

In other words, dont expect realistic airfram, powerplant or ballistics performance thru and thru. Some matters are defeated for the sake of gameplay.

The truly awesome WW2 air combat simulator has not been invented, yet. AH is close, very close -but in final analysis, misses the goal by a fair margin.

Y

Ripsnort · « **Reply #12 on:** May 16, 2001, 08:38:00 AM »

I'm assuming Yeager is trying to quell the fire (one he may have started with the Chog?) since after the N1K gets *fixed* or perked, the P51D is next.

Anyway, just wanted to say that the B26 really doesn't have a blind spot on the belly, using rudders and the side door guns will give you a guns solution for a bird under your belly.

Phantom121 · « **Reply #13 on:** May 16, 2001, 11:36:00 AM »

kfsone:

I am not questioning you abilities as a Lanc driver. I fly N1K almost exclusively. It is fast but not the fastest, it turns well but a couple out turn it, it has 4 adequate 20mm cannons with a lot of ammo but they are not as effective as hispanos, it climbs pretty good but but several planes out climb it. It is not the best at any one thing (except E retention) but overall it is a deadly adversary but it is certain not my choice as a buff killer. The N1K is much more effective low and performance above 15k falls off rapidly, above 25k it is a wallowing pig, and it is virtually impossible to get it over 30k, and if you do it can't fight. If I can catch a buff low (below 15k) then the tactics you describle work very well. I agree with Mandouble that at 11k a well flown niki can chew up a Lanc. But as the fight gets over 20k, I know I am not able to just climb up to and then zoom up and kill a buff. Climbing from the deck he will just outrun me. Climbing from say 10k with a lot speed(300+) to start I got a good chance. Climbing from cruise (say 200-220) I will lose more often than not. I would rather go buff hunting and a G10, LA7, or Yak than a N1K for most 20K engagements. At 30+ the TA152 is the only plane I have had any success with at killing buffs. I guess I am saying as a niki flyer I have never been able to do what you describe.

Graywolf · « **Reply #14 on:** May 16, 2001, 01:48:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
kfsone,

I'd also avoid the "I'm an experienced lanc pilot" story. It really doesn't mean squat when you are going up against people that are equally experienced against lancs... and have 4 cannons pointed your way.

FWIW I think this does mean something. I've been flying ibombers with this guy since he introduced me to WarBirds 1.something...

Sometime later he pointed me in the direction of the Aces High beta...

He's been around for a while, as they say

I've not personally seen what kfsone is taking about. But if I want to attack a bomber from underneath in the Yak-9U, I first have to climb above and then do a long shallow dive to pick up speed. If I don't I end up a sitting target after the pull-up...

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Graywolfe <tim@flibble.org>