MG overheat

[SKYGUNS]

Sry if it was brought up before but I'm getting the feeling that the MG abuse needs to have a limit, not to long ago i lost my turret in my GV and a t34 chased me and used his turret MG to track me which i found very annoying because he was just using it nonstop like a maniac firing long periods of time with no consequences, which brings us to the wish. My wish is to have MG's overheat and break if fired too long. To tell how hot the weapon is would be seen by the thickness of the barrel smoke.   

Thankyou

Skyguns...

[Krusty]

The M249 SAW can be fired so many times in a row (full auto) that the barrel will become white hot. One SEAL team member even said he could see individual bullets moving down the barrel as he fired it. It still worked.

Barrels would expand as heated, the rounds would be less accurate. One "strafer nose" B-25 pilot said he fired the guns so much they overheated and the rounds started scattering like a shotgun effect, but it was a good thing because they were strafing ground targets and it increased chaos on the ground.

But the barrels wouldn't crack/break from anything I've heard. Melting point is several thousand degrees for gun barrels.

[Saurdaukar]

they overheated and the rounds started scattering like a shotgun effect

+1.  I wonder if this would be difficult to code.  Dispersion is already in on a gun by gun basis - but could dispersion even be "altered" based on a variable catalyst like the number of successive rounds through the barrel or time elapsed under sustained fire?

[stephen]

The biggest danger with a hot barrel is the fact that chamber is part of the barrel, and you can deform it, so when you fire later when its cool a round gets stuck in the chamber, the back gets ripped off the casing by the ejector, and a new round gets shoved into whats left of the first casing, causing perhaps an explosive situation.
Or in m249's, and m-60's its possible to get a hang fire(gun wont stop firing) or a cook off (un chamberd round goes off in the feed pan).


While holding down the trigger your in good shape, unfortunatly the wear on the grooving is compounded with the barrel being very hot, and if you keep on firing its likly to deform the barrel as it cools, rendering the gun pretty darn inaccurate, and ticking the armorer off as he has to replace the thing.
Navy Seals and the like aside it aint a good idea to fire a gun whitehot, but if my lifes in danger im jacking rounds downrange in any case... and barrel be damnd.

Oh yeh, bad idea, Ive got enough to worry about without the darn guns jamming or becoming inaccurate while i spray and pray.

[Krusty]

I would imagine (and this is a guess) that as the barrel expands the gasses pushing the bullet flow around the bullet as well, since fit between bullet and barrel is no longer so tight, and this would reduce muzzle velocity of rounds (weaker bullets).

Not sure I want this in AH. AH doesn't model random engine failures or random gun jams for a reason. It's a decision made by Hitech. He probably wouldn't include this if he doesn't include them.

[DPQ5]

Well allot of the machine guns of the time could change barrels, so why add the effect of them breaking when in reality they could just change barrels.

[SmokinLoon]

The only thing we would need in AH2 for overheated gun is a "jam" effect.  If you hold down the trigger too long in your P47 w/ your 3400 rounds (425rds per .50cal) and you hear the "ping/click" on your 5th second of constant fire.... the next sound you'll hear is your own voice swearing like a drunken British sailor.  Of course, I think this could and should be random.  Not all guns jammed.  While were at it, why doesnt HTC model in engine failures, too.   

As far as the "shotgun effect"... so of you guys need to read up a bit.  LOL!  If I were on the ground in a bunker or gv, I'd rather be pelted with tiny pieces of brass coming a lot slower vs a few fully intact AP rounds.  Believe me, as a shooter you do NOT want your projectiles to fragment in air.   

[Ranger45]

The shotgun effect he was talking about was not the projectiles fragmenting, he was talking about the point of aim becoming inconsistent and the bullets impact group growing as a result.

[Keiler]

The M249 SAW can be fired so many times in a row (full auto) that the barrel will become white hot. One SEAL team member even said he could see individual bullets moving down the barrel as he fired it. It still worked.

Barrels would expand as heated, the rounds would be less accurate. One "strafer nose" B-25 pilot said he fired the guns so much they overheated and the rounds started scattering like a shotgun effect, but it was a good thing because they were strafing ground targets and it increased chaos on the ground.

But the barrels wouldn't crack/break from anything I've heard. Melting point is several thousand degrees for gun barrels.

A lot of misinformation here, not to sound rude, but that really needs correction.
You can basically fire every MG to the point where the barrel glows red (white hot MG barrel = total BS, because then steel would be liquid and boiling, color being a funtion of temperature). What happens is that any heat treatment previously applied to the barrel is now gone, steel structure destroyed and reformed to something different you dont want at all. Depending on the steel and exterior circumstances (temperature, humidity, rain etc) you have either a very, very soft barrel afterwards or a brittle one. The soft barrel would be shot smooth (grooves and lands all gone to shotgun-city), if it wasnt already, within very short time (scattergun). The brittle barrel is subject to a solid KABOOM, chance increasing with every shot you fire.

On a sidenote, even yellow to white-hot steel is NOT translucent.

Back to the post, whereas the barrel might not be as much affected by heat, the mechanisms usually are. Parts start to jam against each other, or get a fit too lose etc. Its not THAT rare to jam any machinegun when you go fullauto for an extended period.

I would agree that every automatic weapon in this game could use an invisible cooldown timer. When you exceed it, you got a jam. When you fire shorter than that and quit firing, the gun slowly reverts back to a normal state, until you fire again.

Matt

[Krusty]

Keiler, I didn't see it myself, just that some navy SEAL was talking about firing until it was "white hot" -- maybe it was a euphamism. [EDIT: It was a documentary on the Navy SEALs and their training routines, capabilities, etc, and SEAL guy was talking about the SAW to the camera.]

However, you can fire a barrel so much and for so long it will deform, become less powerful and less accurate. The barrel won't shatter. In WW1 the artillary on the front was used so long after its life span that it would often undershoot the enemy lines and land on friendly lines, and couldn't be aimed. Even today they say that firing a gun/cannon only makes the steel stronger after forging. That doesn't mean more accurate mind you, just stronger.


Hell, even Mythbusters heated up a 30cal MG barrel until it was literally red hot and tried to slice through it with a samurai sword...if this didn't do anything to crack/break it I doubt anything else would.


I can understand the OTHER parts breaking, but not if they're new. Not after 1 ammo belt's worth. Less than 500rpg in the P-47s case. Every time you get a plane in AH it's factory fresh, down to the tree shaped air freshener. Any problems from the previous sortie have been replaced with new parts (including guns). You probably wouldn't see this type of breakdown from fatigue until a few thousand rounds had gone through it nonstop. You run out of ammo before critical failure.

[trigger2]

What could happen is simple, heat is transferred from high to low.
Barrel over heats.
Barrel becomes brittle, heat spreads to cocking mechanisms and firing mechanisms, those become brittle or soft, and when multiple cold bullets are exposed to them, they explode, or deform, causing jams or firing impossible...

Picture above is of a browning m1919 .30 cal.

[Cthulhu]

(Image removed from quote.)

What could happen is simple, heat is transferred from high to low.
Barrel over heats.
Barrel becomes brittle, heat spreads to cocking mechanisms and firing mechanisms, those become brittle or soft, and when multiple cold bullets are exposed to them, they explode, or deform, causing jams or firing impossible...

Picture above is of a browning m1919 .30 cal.

Thermal cycling could produce micro-cracks, specifically where barrel expansion is constrained (at receiver interface), which could be a long-term fatigue issue, but no way does it become brittle. Heating metals reduces their brittleness while increasing their fracture toughness. Softer... yes, Weaker... yes, More Brittle... no.

Biggest problems are:

1) Accuracy. Barrel sag at elevated temps, as well as a slight reduction in the steels modulus, which throws barrel harmonics to Hell and kills accuracy.
2) Differential expansion of mating parts. Action loosens/jams up.
3) Premature cook-off of rounds. Conceivably before the bolt closes. Scary.
4) And like I believe Krusty said, you trash the rifling really quickly.

Keiler I'm curious, you think you can get a barrel hot enough to anneal it? I don't think it's possible before the gun stops functioning from 2) & 3).

[morfiend]

 Mythbusters use a 50 cal barrel not a 30 cal for the sword test.

 I might add that they didn't use a "real" sword but a modern replica,a real 1 is simply too expensive and rare to destroy.

 sry for the hijack...

 BTW,I've seen pictures of some swords in a japanese museum,all valued in excess of 1,000,000.00

[OOZ662]

Mythbusters use a 50 cal barrel not a 30 cal for the sword test.

 I might add that they didn't use a "real" sword but a modern replica,a real 1 is simply too expensive and rare to destroy.

Not true; they used a Browning .30 cal. like the one here, except they removed the barrel guard around the outside. I believe they bashed it with one of those thick "Excalibur" swords, too.

[AirFlyer]

BTW,I've seen pictures of some swords in a japanese museum,all valued in excess of 1,000,000.00

It takes months to ever try and make a katana, combo that in with few sword makers and the idea that you don't necessarily get the sword even 50% of the time and I'm not that surprised.