Author Topic: Aces High bufs are deathtraps (Read 516 times)

covega · « **on:** March 30, 2000, 05:23:00 PM »

The Dickweed Heavy Bomber Group, a buf squadron, has finally had to face the facts:
the AH bufs are deathtraps.
Why?
Very simple. Most AH pilots know that if even only two fighters attack an AH buf from different directions, it is impossible for one gunner to man more than one gun position, so the buf is defenseless from all positions except ONE!
This, of course, is totally unrealistic and makes the AH buf a deathtrap unless it is being attacked by only a single fighter...and then we have the extra-vulnerable hit model to deal with. Not a good situation for the buf jockeys, and unrealistic as well.
/s/
vega
Dickweed Heavy Bomber Group

funked · « **Reply #1 on:** March 30, 2000, 05:45:00 PM »

"Most AH pilots know that if even only two fighters attack an AH buf from different directions, it is impossible for one gunner to man more than one gun position, so the buf is defenseless from all positions except ONE!"

This is true, but when attacked by a single fighter the BUFFs have an incredible defensive firepower. It's a trade-off.

I disagree completely on the damage model. The BUFFs are very tough. Remember that when you are in the BUFF it is not possible to estimate the number of hits taken. The only accurate measure is obtained on the shooter's front end - that's where the hits are scored. The target aircraft just gets whatever sounds the host decides to send that way. I think a lot of bomber pilots have no idea how much ammo their plane is absorbing. I fly about 50/50 heavies and fighters, and trust me they take a LOT of bullets.

Also the idea that a BUFF should be safe from multiple fighters is silly. In the real deal, one on one was generally a turkey shoot in favor of a fighter and many fighters vs. one bomber was near certain death for the bomber.

Constructive Stuff:

I do think we need to be able to carry more than one gunner. Also if a gunner is aboard, the pilot should be able to take over a gun station.

Make one guy the "Master Gunner" and one guy the "Auxilary Gunner". The Aux. Gunner controls his station only, but the "Master Gunner" controls all unmanned stations.

Heck you can extend this to as many Aux. Gunners as you have stations.

I sure don't want to see Otto here. Otto sucks. And looking at the ZSU-23 ack aiming algorithm I shudder to think how it would be coded...

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 03-30-2000).]

Wraith · « **Reply #2 on:** March 30, 2000, 06:19:00 PM »

Just remember that the BUFFS were never designed to fly ALONE in RL

Get your Bomber Group to bring up 3 or 4 Buffs with one gunner in each plane, and lets see how long you last in the air and how many fighters you light up.

Swoop · « **Reply #3 on:** March 30, 2000, 07:22:00 PM »

Here we go again....back to the "real life" argument.
This isn't real life....it's a game.......it's gotta be fun 1st.

Swoop

AKDejaVu · « **Reply #4 on:** March 30, 2000, 07:27:00 PM »

Quote

Very simple. Most AH pilots know that if even only two fighters attack an AH buf from different directions, it is impossible for one gunner to man more than one gun position, so the buf is defenseless from all positions except ONE!

So.. the main argument here is that it should be easier for a buff to survive a 2:1 with fighters? I can't be the only one to see how ludicrous this concept is.

As it stands now, the fact that a buff has such a good chance against a fighter in a 1:1 is slightly rediculous. I'm willing to deal with it for the sake of gameplay though... we just don't have the numbers to man complete bomber groups with escorts all the time.

The buff can fly higher than most planes... and it is suicide for any number of fighters to go up against one over 30k (except for p-38's.. though that is only 50:50). You guys have enough benifits of playability exceeding realism already. Sorry, but I don't even remotely agree with you on this one.

AKDejaVu

JoeMud · « **Reply #5 on:** March 30, 2000, 10:24:00 PM »

its not that 2 fighters could or could not take a buff down its that 1 crew member is BS we need the realistic air crew not unless you want otto and im sure you dont!

------------------
"JoeMud and the Volcano"

Now showing at your local AH drive in!

Kieren · « **Reply #6 on:** March 30, 2000, 11:04:00 PM »

I think the fair compromise is more than one gunner- if someone can talk 7 people into riding in a bomber with him, so be it. It won't happen often enough to be an issue.

FWIW, I flew a B26 tonight to 21; I was intercepted by a Nikki and Spitfire. The Nikki bored straight in, the spit to the side and low. I got both (but lost my engines). I reversed to tackle the 1C flying up my tailpipe. I knew I was done for, but I had a better chance putting 4x.50's on him than 2 (my top turret was dead). He won.

Now before you say this illustrates your point, let me add this fight took place at 10K. Had I climbed to 20K they would never have laid guns on me.

I agree with funked, the buffs are very flyable if you use your head. I'll take two fighters for every buff I lose and be happy.

I might add this is a very typical B26 sortie for me.

Pongo · « **Reply #7 on:** March 31, 2000, 02:29:00 AM »

I aggree, when there is time I hope that an expansion of the buff to allow multi gunners would be great. I would say gunner 2 turns off all coordinated gunnery though.

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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew

Maniac · « **Reply #8 on:** March 31, 2000, 02:56:00 AM »

Swoop,

I tend to think of AH as more as an simulation of WWII air combat than an game (i hope the creators _still_ strive for that anyway.

If you want an "game" then look up Fighter Ace or AW.

------------------
AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-

http://www.rsaf.org/osf/

Vermillion · « **Reply #9 on:** March 31, 2000, 07:29:00 AM »

I have no problem with multiple gunners and have suggested the same thing myself, but I certainly don't want to see "otto" in Aces High.

I have never seen the community in WB's agree on how otto is modeled. If Bomber pilots like it, fighters are getting swatted out of the sky like with a phalanx defense system. If fighter pilots like it, Bomber pilots feel that they can't fly effectively.

Just say no to "otto".

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

Swoop · « **Reply #10 on:** March 31, 2000, 10:33:00 AM »

Maniac,

I'd just like to say; Fighter Ace isn't a game, it's a pathetic use of hard drive space that some people seem to call a flight sim.

AW, never tried it.

Swoop

Ripsnort · « **Reply #11 on:** March 31, 2000, 10:58:00 AM »

I fly the buff. I like the AH buff. The only plane I have a prob. with is the Uber-Hawg Cannons.

JUST SAY NO to otto in AH. We don't want it, we don't need it. If you have a problem with more than 1 fighter attacking your lone buff, GET SOME FIGHTER ESCORT!!!

------------------
Ripsnort(-rip1-)
=CO=II/JG2~Richthofen~
Communications Officer
Aces High Training Corps
JG2 "Richthofen"

"Experience is a hard teacher because she
gives the test first, the lesson afterwards"

[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 03-31-2000).]

Swager · « **Reply #12 on:** March 31, 2000, 11:40:00 AM »

Agree! No OTTO! I survived a long time in that B26 being attacked by 2-3 fighters. They usually end up getting me, but I dealt out some damage. If I would of had at least one escort, I probably would of survived.

Taking a gunner also helps out alot. If there is anything changed it should be to allow two human gunners to be on board. The B26 and B17 would be very tough to kill then.

Just my opinion!

have a nice day!

------------------
Swager
-XO- II/JG2~Richthofen~
"Damn.....I can't believe I missed that shot!!!"

JG2 "Richthofen"

[This message has been edited by Swager (edited 03-31-2000).]

Fishu · « **Reply #13 on:** March 31, 2000, 04:08:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Wraith:
Just remember that the BUFFS were never designed to fly ALONE in RL

Get your Bomber Group to bring up 3 or 4 Buffs with one gunner in each plane, and lets see how long you last in the air and how many fighters you light up.

Then you had also a group of fighters buzzing around

Not to talk about working WGr21 rockets.....
or hmm.. schröke musik or something.. like that..

Fishu · « **Reply #14 on:** March 31, 2000, 04:09:00 PM »

One thing.. HT has stated that there will never be 'otto' in AH.

Author Topic: Aces High bufs are deathtraps (Read 516 times)

covega

funked