Diffrerence between the F6F-5 and the F6F-3?

[Ack-Ack]

I did a bunch of research on that. Actually got some info from the Smithsonian Air and Space museum. ALL F6F-5 fighters and later variants were manufactured with the capability to be armed with 2 20mm cannon on the inboard weapons stations, however most aircraft were delivered with the M2 .50 cal installed. ALL F6F-5N were produced mounting the 20mm cannon but most units in the field removed them in favor of the .50 due to logistics issues with getting the 20mm belted ammo. There are a few recodered kills of F6F-5N fighters armed with the 20mm cannon but as stated they were fairly rare in actual service.

All that being said, the F6F-5 was designed and built to take those cannon but in actual use they were rarely used. When the perk load out option comes online it might be a nice addition since it wasn't a field mod, but an actual design feature built into the aircraft from the start. That would be in keeping with the whole perk ords idea anyway right? The more exotic weapons loads would cost you more to use.

I would like to see it added as a perked option.

VF(N)-90 (USS Enterprise), VF(N)-91 (USS Bonhomme Richard), VF(N)-41 (USS Independence) were all equipped with the 20mm F6F-5N.  There were also quite a few daytime squadrons with night fighter divisions (VF-6, VF-9, VF-10, VF-12, VF-14, VF-15, VF-17, VF-20, VF-33, VF-82, VF-83, VF-84, and VF-85) that were equipped with 20mm F6F-5Ns.


ack-ack

[TUXC]

Does anyone have a drawing, diagram, or some good pictures that illustrate the differences in the cowling of the F6F-3 and F6F-5? The more aerodynamic cowling is often quoted as a reason for the performance increase of the  -5 over the -3 (assuming both have water injection), but I am having trouble finding any pictures that clearly show a difference between the two models.

[Widewing]

Does anyone have a drawing, diagram, or some good pictures that illustrate the differences in the cowling of the F6F-3 and F6F-5? The more aerodynamic cowling is often quoted as a reason for the performance increase of the  -5 over the -3 (assuming both have water injection), but I am having trouble finding any pictures that clearly show a difference between the two models.

How about this?




My regards,

Widewing

[Spikes]

do you think the f6f-5 will be perked?

No.

[Krusty]

All that being said, the F6F-5 was designed and built to take those cannon but in actual use they were rarely used. When the perk load out option comes online it might be a nice addition since it wasn't a field mod, but an actual design feature built into the aircraft from the start.

The P-40 was designed and built to take a 20mm hispano in each wing along with the .30 (and the .50 in the nose).

Doesn't mean it should EVER get this option in-game, now does it?

The P-51 was designed and quite capable of carrying 4x20mm hispanos. In fact the B/D models could easily have carried this, with the Allison-powered models having very similar wing design to the B, and the D having even more room internally than the -B.

Doesn't mean they shoudl EVER get this option, now does it?

So what if the F6F was designed to carry the 20mm?

Big fat hairy deal. Folks keep harping on it over and over and over. Fact of the matter is MANY planes were designed to carry cannon armaments and NEVER carried them that way. Doesn't mean they should ever be modeled that way in a flight sim based on historical combat loadouts.

[TUXC]

How about this?

(Image removed from quote.)


My regards,

Widewing

It looks like Grumman cleaned up the cowling to reduce drag on the -5.

That's what I was looking for. Thanks Widewing.

[Hornet33]

The P-40 was designed and built to take a 20mm hispano in each wing along with the .30 (and the .50 in the nose).

Doesn't mean it should EVER get this option in-game, now does it?

The P-51 was designed and quite capable of carrying 4x20mm hispanos. In fact the B/D models could easily have carried this, with the Allison-powered models having very similar wing design to the B, and the D having even more room internally than the -B.

Doesn't mean they shoudl EVER get this option, now does it?

So what if the F6F was designed to carry the 20mm?

Big fat hairy deal. Folks keep harping on it over and over and over. Fact of the matter is MANY planes were designed to carry cannon armaments and NEVER carried them that way. Doesn't mean they should ever be modeled that way in a flight sim based on historical combat loadouts.

If it wasn't a "field" mod and was actually produced with those options then yes they should have those options as a perk loadout. They were rare so perk the hell out of them, doesn't matter, but those options should be available. There were a number of F6F-5's delivered from the factory with 20mm's installed. The "field" mod was when the crews removed them and replaced them with the .50's. I can't prove that they ever flew in combat just as you can't prove they never didn't fly in combat, but there is ample proof they were built that way.

[thrila]

If this meant that all C and E wing spitfires could have the option for 4 20mm i'm all for it.

[angelsandair]

The P-40 was designed and built to take a 20mm hispano in each wing along with the .30 (and the .50 in the nose).

[hijack] DID it ever carry any 20mm hispanos?? [/hijack]

[Krusty]

If it wasn't a "field" mod and was actually produced with those options then yes they should have those options as a perk loadout. They were rare so perk the hell out of them, doesn't matter, but those options should be available. There were a number of F6F-5's delivered from the factory with 20mm's installed. The "field" mod was when the crews removed them and replaced them with the .50's. I can't prove that they ever flew in combat just as you can't prove they never didn't fly in combat, but there is ample proof they were built that way.

Matter of fact, most of the proof shows they did NOT fly into combat. Reports of the hispanos being removed, 100% of every photo you can find on the internet shows only 6x50cals on all daytime fighters, and 6x50cals on 99% of all night fighters (yes, that's right, even the F6F-5N had the cannons removed most of the time).

Fact of the matter is no daytime F6F ever went into combat with 20mms, that anybody has any proof of so far (and there have been quite a few threads on the matter)

[Mojava]

 I put the illuminated gunsight pipper right between the body of the aircraft, right beneath the flight deck and the right engine. Then I slowly squeezed both triggers. For the second time that night, Black Death’s .50-calibers roared, and the 20mm cannon slowly spit its flaming popcorn-ball rounds.

  From Col. R. Bruce Porter in the "Becoming an ace" section http://www.highironillustrations.com/rogues/bruce_porter.html

 20MM  F6F-N http://aeroweb.brooklyn.cuny.edu/database/aircraft/getimage.htm?id=5173  and http://aeroweb.brooklyn.cuny.edu/database/aircraft/getimage.htm?id=4947


 I thought I had found a good example of a daytime F6F-5 using the 20mm,  until I saw the pilot was John Wayne...doh!

[Hornet33]

Matter of fact, most of the proof shows they did NOT fly into combat. Reports of the hispanos being removed, 100% of every photo you can find on the internet shows only 6x50cals on all daytime fighters, and 6x50cals on 99% of all night fighters (yes, that's right, even the F6F-5N had the cannons removed most of the time).

Fact of the matter is no daytime F6F ever went into combat with 20mms, that anybody has any proof of so far (and there have been quite a few threads on the matter)

Because there is a lack of evidence does not make it fact that they didn't see service. Out of the 15,000 or so aircraft produced how many pictures of those planes are out there? Maybe a couple hundred if that? I'm not going by a picture, I'm going by the documentation, you know good old ink on paper from Grumman/Goodyear the manufacturer of the planes, and those technical documents, maintence manuals and operator manuals clearly state that the F6F-5 airframe (day fighter, 5N night fighter, and 5P photo recon fighter which by the way are ALL the exact same airframe) was designed from the outset to mount 2 20mm cannon on the inboard weapons stations. Those documents also state that there were numerous aircraft delivered from the factories with that gun/cannon package installed.

The evidence is there that they were produced and shipped to the US Navy, and Royal Navy fleets with that configuration.

You are basing your "facts" on what was the typical gun package and that there are no pictures of the other. Lack of a picture is not proof, it's only your opinion that they didn't fly. It's a fact they were built and shipped that way.

Or do you think there is a picture of every single plane that was built and flew in combat?

That's my whole point. The 6 .50's was the typical everyday gun package, BUT it wasn't the only one used. The 20mm package would HAVE to be perked, no doubt about it, but unless you were there in WWII working on every F6F-5 fighter out there and can say with 100% certainty that NO 20mm armed F6F-5 fighter EVER flew in combat, I'll go with the documentation from the factory that says they built them and shipped them armed that way.

[Krusty]

I put the illuminated gunsight pipper right between the body of the aircraft, right beneath the flight deck and the right engine. Then I slowly squeezed both triggers. For the second time that night, Black Death’s .50-calibers roared, and the 20mm cannon slowly spit its flaming popcorn-ball rounds.

It has been shown that a rare handful of F6F-5Ns used the 20mm, but most did not. Even photos of them on flight decks (wartime photos) show them with only 50cals in almost every photo out there.

You are basing your "facts" on what was the typical gun package and that there are no pictures of the other. Lack of a picture is not proof, it's only your opinion that they didn't fly. It's a fact they were built and shipped that way.

Dude, you're so caught up in your drool over a Hellcat with cannons you can't stop to think properly. 109K-4s were SHIPPED from the factory with MG151 gondolas on, and not ONE plane flew with them in combat. Across the board they all used the nose gun only. Does this mean the 109K-4 should have a perked option of gondolas? Hell no.

Allison powered P-51s had quad hispanos in the same wing as the P-51B. P-51Bs came from the factory with the capability to carry 20mm. Should they? HELL NO.

SpitVc Trops at Malta came from the carriers carrying 4x20mm hispanos. Did they fly this way? No. The outer guns were only on there to carry them to their destination, and these planes flew combat with only 2x 20mm.

F6F-5s had mounts for 20mm on the inboard position. Did any carry any? No. Did any F6F-5Ps? No. Did any F6F-5Ns? A very small number, on a specialized night fighter variant that we don't even have in-game. Should it be in game? HELL FRAK NO.

Seriously? Give it up. You can pretend the tooth fairy exists and say that I have to prove it doesn't when in fact most of the evidence over almost all sources say "no, it doesn't"

[Mojava]

The utilisation figures given in this section cannot be correct, at least as far as WW2 production is concerned.  Some 7,200 SB-2C/W were built, using a total of 14,400 cannon. In addition, over 1,400 F6F-5N night fighters, which each carried two cannon, were made. Finally some 200 F4U-1C were equipped with four cannon. This gives a total of around 18,000 guns used by the USN.

The figure of 90+% of production to the USN also cannot be right.  The USAAF principally used the 20mm Hispano in two aircraft: the P-38 (over 9,000 built, carrying one cannon each) and the P-61 (650 built, with four cannon), giving a total of nearly 12,000 guns. Nearly 30,000 guns were therefore fitted to aircraft, of which the USN made use of just over 60%.

This use breaks down (in round figures) as follows: USN attack planes 48%, USN night fighters 10%, USN day fighters 3%, USAAF night fighters 9%, USAAF day fighters 30%. ]

  This is from, http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/US404.htm

 Here's the carrier pic from above showing the 20mm on a flight deck http://aeroweb.brooklyn.cuny.edu/database/aircraft/getimage.htm?id=5173

[Hornet33]

OK Krusty I'll bow to your almighty opinion that you know all and your say so is all I need to be convinced that everything I've read from the manufacturers of the plane are wrong. You are the God of all that is WWII aviation and I'm not worthy to be in your presence.

But the FACT is your wrong and your pissed because you CAN'T prove I'm wrong and you know it. I CAN prove they were designed, built, and shipped that way, you CAN'T prove they never flew that way.

Again your "facts" are all based on your opinion that since you've never seen a combat photo then it never happened. Pretty thin if you ask me. Since the hard data shows that many planes were shipped from the factories with those cannons installed, the burdon of discrediting those sources lies with you to prove that EVERY single plane that was shipped with those cannons had them removed before they entered combat. Good luck with that.

Nice personal attack though stating I can't think. I can research though and that's what I've done, were is your research? Oh I forgot, "There's no pictures on the internet showing them so I never happened."