Author Topic: Flying in first-class is not fun when...  (Read 1549 times)

Offline SD67

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Re: Flying in first-class is not fun when...
« Reply #30 on: July 28, 2008, 06:42:28 AM »
1988 UH1D sitting in seat by the open door. Pilot enters wide banking turn and seatbelt buckle fails and pops open as I'm looking at the ground from about 1000ft. I was holding on tight anyway... I think I left indents in the pole and the seat back :O I needed a new set of greens once we landed.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2008, 06:44:54 AM by SD67 »
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Offline Nilsen

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Re: Flying in first-class is not fun when...
« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2008, 06:57:16 AM »
I saw a pistol a few years back. That scared the bejeebuz out of me! Hopefully the government can prevent that from ever happening again. I could have gotten myself killed. :frown:

Offline CAP1

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Re: Flying in first-class is not fun when...
« Reply #32 on: July 28, 2008, 07:53:36 AM »
You'll find the word "Demonstrated" ahead of them and find it's rare to have an actual crosswind limitation placed on the aircraft in the AFM.

The only commonly seen limitation has to do with the prohibition of landing with a tailwind component in excess of 10 knots.

The only time I've been limited in crosswind component was flying for a domestic 121 airline which placed a limitation in our SOPs which matched the demonstrated crosswind component for the aircraft (28kts).  Because it was written into the GOM it became regulatory and as such had to be adhered to.  The other AFMs on my shelf even go out of their way to specify that the demonstrated crosswind components are not limiting.

The Cessna 172 posesses no such limitation.  It's been years but memory serves it was demonstrated to what...12 knots or so?  Hardly a meaningful limitation for a high winged airplane with plenty of rudder to go around.

It was actuay demonstrated to 15kts, for the 172. that was a test pilot flying a new airplane with a new engine. obviously an old airplane(which a lot of clubs have) with a pilot that might onl fly 2 or 3 times a month, and mostly on calmer days, will not handle that limit as well.
 
 i was talking about that limit with m CFI while we were working the crosswinds the other day. he had stated that the 172 tends to run out of rudder at the 15kts component.

 as for it being a hard fast limit, i believe it is, but then who am i? i've only got 194 total time, and can deal with 8-12kts. 8 is a bit of a workout for me, 12 is difficult. by the end of this year, they'll be easy as i'm spanding all of my non-solo time with my cfi to nail the crosswind landings.

 i've seen too many accidents(or near accidents) caused by them, and get the impression that too many pilots have trouble with the winds once they go over 5 or 6kts.

 lastly, if you REALLY think you're man enough to land in 25-30kts crosswinds, and you rent(or own i think) go ahead and bend the airplane and find out how insurance deals with it. most of our local clubs also impose the 15kts component. there's a lot of dead and fubared pilots that think they were better than they are. this includes ATP pilots too.

 maybe i'm a bit overly cautious, but there will never be an NTSB report generated due to my neglect, or taking an unnecessary risk. my favorite 172(the only one left now) in the club has tried twice. electrical system failure at night, and partial engine failure on take off......both came out great, and were both good learning experiences.
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Offline Golfer

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Re: Flying in first-class is not fun when...
« Reply #33 on: July 28, 2008, 11:04:06 AM »
Well you touched on what I was getting at.  Demonstrated crosswind component is just that...demonstrated.  It's not (though can be) a limitation if written as such into the AFM or a company specific FOM/GOM.  Is it a good idea to adhere to it as a guideline...absolutley!  Is it an end-all be-all limitation and the airplane will ball up and you'll die if you exceed it...absolutely not.  Just to reiterate..."Demonstrated crosswind component is not usually a limitation."  It's found in the limitations section but the way airplanes are certified it may not have been possible for the test pilots to find a situation where the maximum crosswind component for the airplane to have been demonstrated.

It's up to each individual pilot to determine if the conditions are right or safe for whatever they're doing.  Sounds like you're doing exactly that (a good thing :aok) but picking an arbatrary number and declaring it unsafe because you say so isn't the way to go about it.

Offline Golfer

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Re: Flying in first-class is not fun when...
« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2008, 11:07:10 AM »
1988 UH1D sitting in seat by the open door. Pilot enters wide banking turn and seatbelt buckle fails and pops open as I'm looking at the ground from about 1000ft. I was holding on tight anyway... I think I left indents in the pole and the seat back :O I needed a new set of greens once we landed.

My uncle has a similar story from sometime between 1968 and 1970.  He was a crew chief on a UH-1 in Germany and he heard over the noise some yelling.  It was the door gunner hanging on to the M-60 mount with his legs kicking behind him out the window as he was panicking :O  He tells the story better than I do but that has the makings of a great nightmare.

Offline CAP1

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Re: Flying in first-class is not fun when...
« Reply #35 on: July 28, 2008, 12:16:51 PM »
Well you touched on what I was getting at.  Demonstrated crosswind component is just that...demonstrated.  It's not (though can be) a limitation if written as such into the AFM or a company specific FOM/GOM.  Is it a good idea to adhere to it as a guideline...absolutley!  Is it an end-all be-all limitation and the airplane will ball up and you'll die if you exceed it...absolutely not.  Just to reiterate..."Demonstrated crosswind component is not usually a limitation."  It's found in the limitations section but the way airplanes are certified it may not have been possible for the test pilots to find a situation where the maximum crosswind component for the airplane to have been demonstrated.

It's up to each individual pilot to determine if the conditions are right or safe for whatever they're doing.  Sounds like you're doing exactly that (a good thing :aok) but picking an arbatrary number and declaring it unsafe because you say so isn't the way to go about it.

well, i have to admit to being wrong here. for some reason i thought i had remembered reading it to be an absolute number in the POH. i just found it in all 3 of my cessna POH's, and it says exactly as you stated.....that it is not a limitaton.

 it may be that i confused that with the clubs i fly out of. the one i used to fly from had some pretty severe restrictions. we couldn't plan a flight to a field with shorter than 3,000 ft runway, no soft fields, and they were anal about the 15kt xwind.
 the club i'm in now, has no softfield or runway restrictions, but we have to carry our own renters insurance, and they still stick to the 15kt xwind.

 like i said, last year when i was flying 2 to 4 times a month, i was landing in 8-12 ok. i've flow 3 hours since october o7.  i need practice. :D i'm getting it, and my CFI is having fun with the xwinds. the airport i fl from(VAY) has a tree line that creates turbulence at the threshold to 26, which makes the landings interesting.

<<S>>

 
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Offline Golfer

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Re: Flying in first-class is not fun when...
« Reply #36 on: July 28, 2008, 12:39:18 PM »
I'd be anal too about Joe Renter flying my airplane.  That's why I'm not going to do a leaseback   ;)

Club, flight school and company limitations are fine but again they're not AFM limitations.  You can bet your butt my club would have a crosswind policy in place for renters.  And a soft field policy of "you wash the plane" :)

Fly safe.

Offline CAP1

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Re: Flying in first-class is not fun when...
« Reply #37 on: July 28, 2008, 01:12:06 PM »
I'd be anal too about Joe Renter flying my airplane.  That's why I'm not going to do a leaseback   ;)

Club, flight school and company limitations are fine but again they're not AFM limitations.  You can bet your butt my club would have a crosswind policy in place for renters.  And a soft field policy of "you wash the plane" :)

Fly safe.

thanks dude///you too.........

i think i would consider doing a leaseback if i bought an older plane. it seems that the club owner has created a situation, that allows the aircraft owner to limit who can fy their planes.

 both of the diamonds in the club are set up like that, but none of the warriors or skyhawks as of yet.......
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Offline Maverick

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Re: Flying in first-class is not fun when...
« Reply #38 on: July 28, 2008, 10:56:09 PM »
Golfer and Cap,

Before you guys get to dueling joysticks here there is something you might want to consider. The original post you guys are arguing about didn't mention the "C" word (crosswind) just that the wind was gusting up to 25.

Had a great takeoff experience on my solo cross country while doing my PPL.  Went into one airport on a day that the airport should have been closed.  Wind was gusting about 25 and ice on the runway.  Needless to say, scared the poop out of me.

The ice on the runway comment scares the bejeebus outa me though.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Flying in first-class is not fun when...
« Reply #39 on: July 28, 2008, 11:03:17 PM »
Golfer and Cap,

Before you guys get to dueling joysticks here there is something you might want to consider. The original post you guys are arguing about didn't mention the "C" word (crosswind) just that the wind was gusting up to 25.

The ice on the runway comment scares the bejeebus outa me though.

you're too late dude. i think we've stopped dueling. i was wrong. golfer was right. but i think we agreed that landing in high crosswinds is touchy sometimes.

 the icey runway would scare me away too.  :D
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Offline VonMessa

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Re: Flying in first-class is not fun when...
« Reply #40 on: July 28, 2008, 11:45:48 PM »
So.......

Flying in first class is not fun when....................

The guy next to you opens his laptop and it looks like THIS...........http://www.thecleverest.com/countdown.swf
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Offline VonMessa

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Re: Flying in first-class is not fun when...
« Reply #41 on: July 28, 2008, 11:47:51 PM »
Oh yeah....

Hey Golfer, I didn't know you flew, also.  This place is right near me.  About 1/2 hour away.

http://www.buttervalley.com/
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Offline Serenity

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Re: Flying in first-class is not fun when...
« Reply #42 on: July 28, 2008, 11:51:06 PM »
You know whats really fun? Landing in a headwind that EXCEEDS your stall speed. Nose in, full flaps, throttle back...

You guys would love some of the more exotic airports. Dillingham can actually get pretty interesting, especially considering how close the aircraft in the pattern get (Youll have up to 3 sets of gear touching down on the same runway at the exact same time). Of course, then theres this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4aRwHvyyDew

Offline Golfer

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Re: Flying in first-class is not fun when...
« Reply #43 on: July 29, 2008, 12:12:07 AM »
Oh yeah....

Hey Golfer, I didn't know you flew, also.  This place is right near me.  About 1/2 hour away.

http://www.buttervalley.com/

Our airplane is based over at Coatesville.  I've been in West Chester since May.  Nifty place...might have to find my way up there to play!  I didn't know anything about that place until just now thanks!

Offline rogwar

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Re: Flying in first-class is not fun when...
« Reply #44 on: July 29, 2008, 12:38:27 AM »
I've landed here before and did not care for it very much.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYt3FcMklpM


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