Test Question for anyone

[BaldEagl]

I'm not assuming he's carrying more speed than me, in fact I don't want him to be too much faster than me. 

This comment of mine:

Of course, a late break against a high speed opponent will work against anyone for at least a moment but again, you are assuming that your opponent is carrying much more speed than you.

Was directed at this comment:

it doesnt matter how good the enemy is the fact is still true. The earlier you start evading the more time you give them to adjust and spoiling someone's aim at the last minute is more effective than giving them time to line up another shot.

What if both pilots are experts, can anyone have control?

Yes.  The pilot who best manages E (meaning high E states, low E states and transitions) will control the fight, all other things being equal.

[dentin]

Since this is the "Help and Training Forum" I'll take your reply seriously Dentin, even though I suspect you're just playin' games here...

He's "put" there by me, through my maneuvering.  I simply turn away from him so he can start out on my six.  I could "put" him anywhere I want to in relation to me, simply by maneuvering.  If I want him behind me, but he's unable to catch me, I'll turn slightly to give him a "corner" to cut across, "allowing" him to catch me.  If I want him in front of me, I turn towards him.  Quite simple, really.  The vast majority (90% or more?) of pilots who find themselves behind me (usually through my doing) will start out behind me, then be on my right side, then under me, then in front of me, and then in the tower.

I'm as likely to "give" someone my six as I am to merge in a more normal nose-nose fashion.  Why not?  It works far more often then not; for me as well as for many other pilots.  Mechanic/BatfinkV showed you how at the beginning of the thread.  

Often, I actually prefer my opponent to start on my six, so I will turn to "put" him there, or at least make it very easy for him to get there, and difficult/impossible for him to approach me from any other angle.  If I point away from him, how can he merge from my nose or side?  In short, if he wants to kill me he needs to approach from my rear, because I said so by turning away.  I'm dictating the angle he approaches me from.  Beyond that, I actually want him to think he got there on his own, and that I'm trying to get away, and that he's in control of the situation.  In truth I already have him reacting to me, which is generally a bad idea (for him).

If your SA is adequate, it should be practically impossible for anyone to get behind you without your knowledge.  Personally, I've got decent tabs on anyone within 6k of me, and "hyper-sensitivity" to anyone within 4k.  And a very good idea of what's going on within a sector of me.  I may not have a choice over whether or not a guy 4k away from me will attack me, but if he does, I do have a choice over which angle (relative to me) that he approaches from.  I can choose to have him attack from my rear (by turning away from him), or from my front (by turning towards him).  If attackers "get" behind you without your knowledge, or close enough to you so you can't control the angle they approach from (at least in 1v1's or 1v2's), I'd say you should look at improving your SA.  If you're getting ganged you obviously have no control over most of the situation, but getting ganged hints at SA problems too (unless you want to be ganged, I suppose).

If you know an attacker is present, and turn so he can't attack from any angle other than from behind you, you've effectively "put" him behind you, at least from your perspective.  He's attacking you from the angle you want him to attack you from.

MtnMan

 "Since this is the "Help and Training Forum" I'll take your reply seriously Dentin, even though I suspect you're just playin' games here".  I know what forum I'm in..thankyouverymuch. . and your suspicions are incorrect.  Simply trying to keep this thread on the light side.

I certainly do appreciate your detailed explanation on how you maneuver the "bad guy" onto your six(6)..I'm sure everyone that reads this thread will appreciate same.

IMHO, once someone is behind you (aka on your 6) you are pretty much at a serious disadvantage, not to be confused with a "hopeless disadvantage". Flight combat is always in a state of flux, what works on one may/may not work on another..best to try to keep the "bad guys" off your six.

dentin has left the building. 

[mechanic]

Aye, but just because Batfink and few other select experts can control fight no matter their position, it is still very wrong to transmit message to us less fortunate, saying the best way to control fight is to let somebody on your six.

Some vets do that because sometimes that's the only way to get somebody to fight. They know that odds to meet somebody equal in skill are very slim.

the question posed was 'what if' they are on your 6, not let them on. I do see your point on some aspects. The fact remains once again, that motherland's answer was correct, YOU decide what happens next.

edit: and dont play coy, your gunnery puts mine to shame

[evenhaim]

I like to bait by giving my 6 but I think what is true is that i allow the con to make the first move I respond to what he does directly nothing else, in the first stage of the fight IMO the attacker controls the outcome.

[2bighorn]

YOU decide what happens next.

You decide what YOU will do next. What will HAPPEN depends on attacker as well. Do you agree with that?

[evenhaim]

You decide what YOU will do next. What will HAPPEN depends on attacker as well. Do you agree with that?

I believe I just said that doy!

[mechanic]

You decide what YOU will do next. What will HAPPEN depends on attacker as well. Do you agree with that?

certainly, he will either decide to attack you or not.

The adavantage motherland and i were talking about is that when you make a move you already know what is happening, the attack must react quickly if not to lose time, do you agree with that?

[2bighorn]

The adavantage motherland and i were talking about is that when you make a move you already know what is happening, the attack must react quickly if not to lose time, do you agree with that?

Agree, but similarly, your move was in response to his attack. Maybe he's smart boy and is anticipating your next move, knowing your options.
Then maybe not and he'll be caught by surprise. It sort of a gamble. That's why I don't want to call it 'advantage'.

So, it is more or less chicken and egg question.

[BnZ]

Well, anyone on your six with controlled closure who is a decent shot has a reasonable chance shooting you out of the sky. However, controlling our closure can be almost physically painful in the MA...you want to close in and shoot, you are thinking about other bandits, friendlies diving in front of you to steal the kill, etc...this is what Batfink is trying to say here...

Interesting to consider the mental approaches going on here. I tend to think about the world in physical terms, that carries over to AHII. I tend to think about what myself and the other airplane can do in terms of energy and angles. These things are empirical absolutes, the kind of information the average adult male (average AHII player) is most comfortable working with.  I'm just not put together mentally in a way that makes me good at "reading" people though.

 Batfink of course must think about E and angles, but through either practice or inclination, he is also thinking in psychological terms-he has a grasp of what the opponent is likely to be thinking. And this is an advantage that demonstrably works for him. Now you can argue that you can only guess what the other guy has in mind, but it is possible to become a rather good guesser with enough experience.

If you have a good enough grasp of E states and relative plane capabilities, you can always know what the other guy CAN do with a very small marging for error. But this information may not help you out of your particular situation. Guy on our six with sufficient E reasonably controlled closure-he CAN kill you every time if he is a hot enough shot. But most of the time, he won't be, and knowing what the other guy is LIKELY to do 9 of 10 times can work when nothing else will.

[mechanic]

thanks BnZ, you explained it much better than i could. What bighorn is saying is important, don't expect to go out there and pull 'foolish' moves and expect them to work. It takes time to learn anything. I dont think it is something only some people have, to read the attacker well. What must be done is to spend a few years deliberately flying below the masses and encouraging people to attack you. Every fight you win from altitude advantage is a flight wasted if you want to learn reversals and develope your own 'anti-Boom n' Zoom' tactics.

[BnZ]

Okay Bat, don't put down my boom-and-zoom aircraft.  I've always like certain aircraft that can charitibly be called "bricks". I really do get alot of satisfaction from bnz tactics, not so much from just OPHA on the unsuspecting, but from the difficult task of shooting down a more maneuverable kite with a brick using E tactics. My other "kink" is landing...I like that part alot...call me crazy. 

But yeah, alot of players in the MA don't even seem to understand that a 350 mph P-51 CAN easily dodge a 420mph spit diving on their tail and even sting their tail feathers if one is a good shot.

thanks BnZ, you explained it much better than i could. What bighorn is saying is important, don't expect to go out there and pull 'foolish' moves and expect them to work. It takes time to learn anything. I dont think it is something only some people have, to read the attacker well. What must be done is to spend a few years deliberately flying below the masses and encouraging people to attack you. Every fight you win from altitude advantage is a flight wasted if you want to learn reversals and develope your own 'anti-Boom n' Zoom' tactics.

[mechanic]

the term anti-BnZ whilst amusing with your name is not intended to degrade what BnZ fighting is. I love to BnZ and enjoy often the same principles you just said. There is nothing shamefull about flying a BnZ style but there is definitely a need to learn how to combat an enemy using BnZ on you in the current MA.