Author Topic: Stall fighting pullout  (Read 2727 times)

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Stall fighting pullout
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2008, 06:06:28 PM »
You must be SAPPer.
To me, it has nasty stall characteristics, hence I can hardly control its stall. Snap rolls are difficult too. The only time I can control the stall is on the top reversals.

Really?  I'm not saying this because I'm in SAPP or fly it exclusively and therefore see it only through rose tinted glasses but it has one of it not the most gentle stall characteristics in game.  Usually a notch of flaps is enough to ride that fine line between the stall and flight and if you do stall, most cases all you have is just a slight dip in the nose and then you've recovered.

The only time I have troubles controlling the P-38 is if I get into a spin induced by the flaps auto-retracting, if I am below 5,000ft I can usually forget about trying to recover as I'll hit the deck before I am able to.

I'm sure you've seen this film, Flight Characteristics of the P-38 before but it has a good example demostrating the gentle stall characteristics and recovery.

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Offline FireDragon

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Re: Stall fighting pullout
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2008, 06:07:00 PM »
What happens when you drop flaps in level flight?



Ohhhhh lift... so it pushes you down  when up sidedown.....

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Stall fighting pullout
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2008, 06:08:21 PM »

I am having trouble picturing this.... What do the flaps do for you if you are upside down..

Thanks

If you're inverted at the top of a loop and near stall speed, you can deploy a notch of flaps and it will help swing your nose down quicker over the top of the loop.  


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Offline 2bighorn

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Re: Stall fighting pullout
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2008, 06:30:10 PM »
Really?  I'm not saying this because I'm in SAPP or fly it exclusively and therefore see it only through rose tinted glasses but it has one of it not the most gentle stall characteristics in game.  Usually a notch of flaps is enough to ride that fine line between the stall and flight and if you do stall, most cases all you have is just a slight dip in the nose and then you've recovered.

The only time I have troubles controlling the P-38 is if I get into a spin induced by the flaps auto-retracting, if I am below 5,000ft I can usually forget about trying to recover as I'll hit the deck before I am able to.

I'm sure you've seen this film, Flight Characteristics of the P-38 before but it has a good example demostrating the gentle stall characteristics and recovery.

ack-ack

Yeah, especially if I compare it to lets say 109s. Probably because how I work the rudder in torque challenged rides. Guess it's a bad habit when in p-38.

I can recover the nose dips somehow, but boy, if I enter one of those nasty spins. I don't have so much trouble with top reversals tho. Still, I stall it twice as much as any other plane. I guess I need more practice in it.

Thanks for the video link. Cool stuff.

Offline mechanic

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Re: Stall fighting pullout
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2008, 08:42:20 PM »
the more power you have on the way down the wider you will pull up and the less time you will have to shoot. kinda obvious but something most people seem oblivious to. Although most MA flyers also seem unable to locate the throttle aside from taking off. When you find someone turn fighting in an la7 at 120mph.... be afraid.
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Offline goober69

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Re: Stall fighting pullout
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2008, 10:58:50 PM »
Really?  I'm not saying this because I'm in SAPP or fly it exclusively and therefore see it only through rose tinted glasses but it has one of it not the most gentle stall characteristics in game.  Usually a notch of flaps is enough to ride that fine line between the stall and flight and if you do stall, most cases all you have is just a slight dip in the nose and then you've recovered.

The only time I have troubles controlling the P-38 is if I get into a spin induced by the flaps auto-retracting, if I am below 5,000ft I can usually forget about trying to recover as I'll hit the deck before I am able to.

I'm sure you've seen this film, Flight Characteristics of the P-38 before but it has a good example demostrating the gentle stall characteristics and recovery.

ack-ack

wow great site i've never seen any of those films but i have read the manuals for the 38 and spit 9
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Offline Agent360

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Re: Stall fighting pullout
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2008, 12:53:57 AM »
Interesting topic.

Lets dig a little deeper on this subject.

What are you trying to accomplish with this maneuver?

1. Create a gun solution.

2. Create an over shoot.

3. Create an turn that gains angles and leads to a gun solution, overshoot or escape

What you do and how you do it are dependant upon what your goal is.

I think you meant how to get guns on this maneuver. But there are two other possibilites when doing this kind of maneuver.

Thnik of it like the Blue Angels show move when they all go verticle and split off and perfect angles pulling out to level. It looks like a star.

The angle coming out at the top determins where your nose will be pointing when you come down.

If I pull up to a verticle line (90 deg), chop to flaps, Wep/tork/rudder it around 180 deg to left at stall I should get guns but I am just hanging there and if I miss I am immediatly defensive.

But if I want to get offensive fast I can create the overshoot giving up the guns in favor of better position with more enegy.

You have to master the basic hammerhead first. You can also experiment with tail sliding..this is very difficut to do without going to an uncontrolled snap roll. But try it anyway. You will learn all kind of cool things.

First you have to practice this:

Flying a 90 verticle line up using wep. Hold the plane exactly verticle...not nose down or over. verticle. Until the plane goes to a power on stall. At the about 20 speed point push stick forward and tread on the left rudder. Do not use flaps.

The plane will start a slow roll to left and proceed to wing stall if you do nothing but go strait up to 0. To see what happens on auto pilot pull it up to the vert then hit shift/x with wep on and dont touch the controls. Let the plane just do its thing. Then you will understand. Film it and look at it.

From 50 mph to 0 will be the hardest part to control. So, you have to move the controls to keep the plane on the 90 deg verticle line. That means eassssy stick forward, easssssy right roll and very eassssssy right rudder. The goal is to hold the plane against its own tork on the verticle line until it gets to power on stall and then recover by easing off the conrols to allow the tork to pull the nose around and down. You correct appropiatly after the nose drops.

When you can control the plane without snap rolling and nose around then you are ready to do the move.

The move.

You must be below 200 mph for it to work....break turn, chopped zoom, etc.

Verticle line up. Chop to flaps 2 nothces, easy stick forward, Right rudder/left roll to stall, left rudder/wep on. You will have to learn to "feather" all the conrol surfaces and throttle together to get the right mix of control.

For overshoots and escapes you do the same thing but use no flaps and just wing stall ( stick back left/right and opposite rudder). A "controlled" snap roll. Yu can control the heading change by pushing stick forward at different parts of the roll.

It is best to be looking behind you in the verticle. On the pull up when you see them lag behind ( appear to float under your tail moving to your non vissible low six) This is the sign of an overshoot situation. Now you hit the brakes ( chop to flaps) and pull the maneuver. Eventually you will be able to know where they are and how to come out of the verticle with your nose pointing at them.

This maneuver is very handy and is the basis for almost all 109 "majik moves". I call it the "sleadge hammer" after the aerobatic move "headhammer" and the fact that if you do it right the other gets a cockpit full of taters....kaaaaabooom. The sleadge is different in that it involves more of a snap roll. A verticle snap roll if you like.

Agent360


« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 12:57:23 AM by Agent360 »

Offline titanic3

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Re: Stall fighting pullout
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2008, 09:37:20 AM »
That depends on your skill level there are some more difficult manouvers to pull at the top, for example with the 109(g14 and k4) there is the "flip trick" manover, at the top (guessing the con is below you) you pull up chop throttle rudder left 2 notches flaps full throttle with wep. All of this must be preformed in very little time, and youll flip over so quickly the con will see you head to head before he stalls.

  Exactly how fast should it be done? Can you try to give me a time limit on the entire process?
Interesting topic.

Lets dig a little deeper on this subject.

What are you trying to accomplish with this maneuver?

1. Create a gun solution.

2. Create an over shoot.

3. Create an turn that gains angles and leads to a gun solution, overshoot or escape

What you do and how you do it are dependant upon what your goal is.

I think you meant how to get guns on this maneuver. But there are two other possibilites when doing this kind of maneuver.

Thnik of it like the Blue Angels show move when they all go verticle and split off and perfect angles pulling out to level. It looks like a star.

The angle coming out at the top determins where your nose will be pointing when you come down.

If I pull up to a verticle line (90 deg), chop to flaps, Wep/tork/rudder it around 180 deg to left at stall I should get guns but I am just hanging there and if I miss I am immediatly defensive.

But if I want to get offensive fast I can create the overshoot giving up the guns in favor of better position with more enegy.

You have to master the basic hammerhead first. You can also experiment with tail sliding..this is very difficut to do without going to an uncontrolled snap roll. But try it anyway. You will learn all kind of cool things.

First you have to practice this:

Flying a 90 verticle line up using wep. Hold the plane exactly verticle...not nose down or over. verticle. Until the plane goes to a power on stall. At the about 20 speed point push stick forward and tread on the left rudder. Do not use flaps.

The plane will start a slow roll to left and proceed to wing stall if you do nothing but go strait up to 0. To see what happens on auto pilot pull it up to the vert then hit shift/x with wep on and dont touch the controls. Let the plane just do its thing. Then you will understand. Film it and look at it.

From 50 mph to 0 will be the hardest part to control. So, you have to move the controls to keep the plane on the 90 deg verticle line. That means eassssy stick forward, easssssy right roll and very eassssssy right rudder. The goal is to hold the plane against its own tork on the verticle line until it gets to power on stall and then recover by easing off the conrols to allow the tork to pull the nose around and down. You correct appropiatly after the nose drops.

When you can control the plane without snap rolling and nose around then you are ready to do the move.

The move.

You must be below 200 mph for it to work....break turn, chopped zoom, etc.

Verticle line up. Chop to flaps 2 nothces, easy stick forward, Right rudder/left roll to stall, left rudder/wep on. You will have to learn to "feather" all the conrol surfaces and throttle together to get the right mix of control.

For overshoots and escapes you do the same thing but use no flaps and just wing stall ( stick back left/right and opposite rudder). A "controlled" snap roll. Yu can control the heading change by pushing stick forward at different parts of the roll.

It is best to be looking behind you in the verticle. On the pull up when you see them lag behind ( appear to float under your tail moving to your non vissible low six) This is the sign of an overshoot situation. Now you hit the brakes ( chop to flaps) and pull the maneuver. Eventually you will be able to know where they are and how to come out of the verticle with your nose pointing at them.

This maneuver is very handy and is the basis for almost all 109 "majik moves". I call it the "sleadge hammer" after the aerobatic move "headhammer" and the fact that if you do it right the other gets a cockpit full of taters....kaaaaabooom. The sleadge is different in that it involves more of a snap roll. A verticle snap roll if you like.

Agent360




 Thanks for your answer and everybody else's. To try to clear up my question a little bit...

 *I am in a 109, and I'm fighting a P-51. I decided to pull up to the vertical and dive down on him, he matches my move and we're canopy to canopy, he enters a stall and drop downs. My question is, what's a faster move? Pulling on the stick and diving down on him? Or use the "Flip trick Maneuver" as explained by Evenhaim?

  the game is concentrated on combat, not on shaking the screen.

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Offline Spatula

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Re: Stall fighting pullout
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2008, 06:33:52 PM »
  Exactly how fast should it be done? Can you try to give me a time limit on the entire process?
 Thanks for your answer and everybody else's. To try to clear up my question a little bit...

 *I am in a 109, and I'm fighting a P-51. I decided to pull up to the vertical and dive down on him, he matches my move and we're canopy to canopy, he enters a stall and drop downs. My question is, what's a faster move? Pulling on the stick and diving down on him? Or use the "Flip trick Maneuver" as explained by Evenhaim?

Depends how much airspeed you have when you decide to reverse. If you have very little airspeed (say under 100 indicated) a hammerhead type of move or wing-over is really the best way to go; pull too hard back on the stick when your very slow and you may well get into a spin. Its best to let the plane do the work for you (let the nose pendulum over) and just tiny stick inputs to coax it along the way, rather than try to man-handle the nose around and over using elevator. If you have plenty of airspeed, then using the elevator to loop over may well be the better option.
It sounds like you're trying to rope them purely in the vert. I would be more inclined to rope them by way of spiral-climb, especially in a 109K. IMO, its a much safer option, and easier to reverse back onto them with a wing-over.
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Offline PFactorDave

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Re: Stall fighting pullout
« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2008, 11:24:25 PM »
Anybody who thinks the P38 has nasty stall characteristics should spend more time flying a Mossie...  Mossies stall hard and brutally.

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Offline mechanic

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Re: Stall fighting pullout
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2008, 01:04:56 PM »
Amen Dave. On a side note i have been meaning to send you those mossy films (if indeed i am not too late). Have been using a borrowed laptop last few months till i can earn some cash for a PC, so things have been falling behind. Appologies for that sir.
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Offline 2bighorn

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Re: Stall fighting pullout
« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2008, 01:08:18 PM »
Anybody who thinks the P38 has nasty stall characteristics should spend more time flying a Mossie...  Mossies stall hard and brutally.

Well, there's a reason why I keep away from bombers (b-38 included)  ;)

Offline evenhaim

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Re: Stall fighting pullout
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2008, 01:09:37 PM »
Well, there's a reason why I keep away from bombers (b-38 included)  ;)
actually i have footage of you flying said b38!
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Stall fighting pullout
« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2008, 05:09:46 PM »
Well, there's a reason why I keep away from bombers (b-38 included)  ;)

I see a lot in this thread have twin engine envy ;)


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Offline Gixer

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Re: Stall fighting pullout
« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2008, 05:53:30 PM »
I see a lot in this thread have twin engine envy ;)


ack-ack

I like the twin engine warp, one throttle closed other full at top of climb throw it into a spin. Can't hit a thing because of the warps. Even more effective then the 190 stir.  :rolleyes:



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